quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
You do realize the we, the US Taxpayers (technically our children AND their children!), are FUNDING the Ukrainian .gov don't you? A good portion of the largesse provided to the Ukrainians by our misguided/corrupt leaders was specifically to pay .gov salaries, and ensure their budget wish list/requirements were met! The 'Ukrainians' aren't 'actively investing' ANYTHING but our tax dollars!

They are investing with their lives. I think that is a pretty significant investment.

As for paying Ukrainian .gov salaries, we did that for 19 years in Afghanistan and that government folded like a cheap suit the minute we left.

As for saving armaments in case China decides to invade Taiwan, that is one o the reasons we need to continue to support Ukraine. We need to show Xi that invading a sovereign, democratic nation will b incredibly costly to his country.

Why are you so sure Russia will win?

Historically, they are grossly incompetent at warfare.

At best, they buy themselves another Lithuania or Poland under the USSR, and will have constant unrest.

As a positive, there seems to be genuine anger about the corruption- which may lead to something like what the Veterans Party did when GIs came back to the South.

The most dangerous aspect about the ChiComs and Russians is their populace is genuinely surprised when others don’t want to be enslaved to their Glorious Leader.

We are chattel as well, but our crony class has to be discreet about it.

This war ends with Putin’s death, one way or another.

When that happens, Europe is going to have to deal with equipped and experienced Chechens, without a master, and Russia, probably, breaking up into an anarchy.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Why are you so sure Russia will win?

Historically, they are grossly incompetent at warfare.

Hitler and the Werhmacht would disagree, and so would Napoleon.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
You do realize the we, the US Taxpayers (technically our children AND their children!), are FUNDING the Ukrainian .gov don't you? A good portion of the largesse provided to the Ukrainians by our misguided/corrupt leaders was specifically to pay .gov salaries, and ensure their budget wish list/requirements were met! The 'Ukrainians' aren't 'actively investing' ANYTHING but our tax dollars!

They are investing with their lives. I think that is a pretty significant investment.

As for paying Ukrainian .gov salaries, we did that for 19 years in Afghanistan and that government folded like a cheap suit the minute we left.

As for saving armaments in case China decides to invade Taiwan, that is one o the reasons we need to continue to support Ukraine. We need to show Xi that invading a sovereign, democratic nation will b incredibly costly to his country.

Uhhh, that wasn't the point...You're taking my quote out of context.

But, that said, if you're indicating that 'investing' for 19 years in Afghanistan was a 'Bad Investment', I agree wholeheartedly! How is 'investing' in Ukraine, where corruption is a essentially a profession/.gov sponsored enterprise somehow a better/smarter 'investment'?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Why are you so sure Russia will win?

Historically, they are grossly incompetent at warfare.

Hitler and the Werhmacht would disagree, and so would Napoleon.

Well, they did have some logistical help from the US in WWII:

"By the end of June 1944 the United States had sent to the Soviets under lend-lease more than 11,000 planes; over 6,000 tanks and tank destroyers; and 300,000 trucks and other military vehicles."

Link

How shall we minimize Napoleon's defeat?

I realize that the position I've taken on this conflict is not the popular one. I get the distinct impression though (and not referring to present company) that the majority of Americans who support our involvement in this conflict know nothing about it except what the television and Twitter tells them.

And a big factor in Russian war victories:
The winter weather. Neither Hitler or Napoleon was prepared for it.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
How shall we minimize Napoleon's defeat?

I certainly won't minimize it as the Russian's played some things smartly. However, logistics also swayed that outcome drastically.

quote:

I realize that the position I've taken on this conflict is not the popular one. I get the distinct impression though (and not referring to present company) that the majority of Americans who support our involvement in this conflict know nothing about it except what the television and Twitter tells them.

No argument there.

The innate tendency of humans to latch onto "heroes" and champions may have been useful in centuries past, but it's not doing a damn thing to help us in the modern world.

People try to bring purpose to their lives by using the shortcut of glomming on to the causes of others. This is all well and good when those people are adequately informed, but in that respect, all we've gotten about the Ukrainian conflict is a bunch of war propaganda.

One way this natural tendency of humans to seek out and align themselves with heroes manifests itself in the modern world is the very unfortunate trend of all this ridiculous DC Comics superhero shit, which, by the way, is also rife with propaganda.

Signed,
parabellum - half-assed sociologist

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

I realize that the position I've taken on this conflict is not the popular one. I get the distinct impression though (and not referring to present company) that the majority of Americans who support our involvement in this conflict know nothing about it except what the television and Twitter tells them.

Don't sell yourself short. I think the vast majority here see this exactly for what it is.

The fact that “President” Zelenskyy has made any opposition party to his own party illegal tells you everything you need to know about this guy.

And disbanded all alternative Ukraine media.

quote:

Originally posted by walkinghorse:
Think of the money that is going to be spent in rebuilding when that time comes, if it does?
Where is that coming from?

For starters from $300 billion of Russian assets frozen in Western banks. Then from reparations like ones Iraq paid to Kuwait for exactly this kind of adventure.

Why everybody is treating this as a charity case which appeared on our doorstep out of the blue? It's not. We took the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal (complete with delivery vehicles like ICBMs, strategic bombers and cruise missiles) from Uhkraine in 1994 in exchange to guaranteing their sovereignty and territorial integrity. The other guarantors were Russia, UK and France. Russia is the one violating it. In fact, many of cruise missiles now being lobbed into apartment buildings and civilian infrastructure are from the stash of ~650 Ukraine turned over to Russia as part of that very agreement. And they are launched from formerly Ukrainian strategic bombers.

We walk away from our obligations now and the whole world will take notice that the only way for a non-NATO country to stay independent next to an aggressive neighbor is to get nukes ASAP.

Like him or not, Zelensky's personality and antics have nothing to do with the reasons the US is involved in that conflict.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

quote:

Originally posted by dan-o:
You're wrong about this, Para.

You can cherry-pick incidents of graft in aid to Ukraine, but the material donated to the war effort is making it to the front lines and making a difference. The Ukrainians are actively investing and prosecuting politicians who mishandle aid funds.

You do realize the we, the US Taxpayers (technically our children AND their children!), are FUNDING the Ukrainian .gov don't you? A good portion of the largesse provided to the Ukrainians by our misguided/corrupt leaders was specifically to pay .gov salaries, and ensure their budget wish list/requirements were met! The 'Ukrainians' aren't 'actively investing' ANYTHING but our tax dollars!

They were sitting pretty behind a massive pile of nukes until we decided to exchange them for our assurances of independence and territorial integrity. Donating old artillery pieces, MLRSs, APCs and surplus Hummers is too rich for our blood? Does it really cost more than thousands of nuclear warheads, hundreds of cruise and ballistic missiles and several dozens of strategic bombers we took from them back in '94? I doubt Pukin would be so quick to get froggy if faced with a real possibility of the same kind of missile barrage he unleashed on Kyiv being rained on Kremlin. Not to mention a chance to see a mushroom cloud over these ruby stars.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:?
I realize that the position I've taken on this conflict is not the popular one. I get the distinct impression though (and not referring to present company) that the majority of Americans who support our involvement in this conflict know nothing about it except what the television and Twitter tells them.

Para, I would not characterize your opinion as unpopular. Latest poll that I saw showed 56% of Republicans support U.S. involvement in Ukraine. That means that 44% oppose it. And reading through the comments in this thread it seems to me that a majority on this board oppose U.S. involvement.

Para, you have, for as long as I can remember, warned about the danger China poses to the U.S. You were warning about this long before it was cool or in vogue for Republicans to do so.

You have also always had an isolationist streak in you. I remember when you shut the Board down for the day in remembrance on September 11, 2002. However you came out against the war in Afghanistan long before Trump decided to pull the plug.

What surprises is that you don’t see Russia as being just as much a threat as China. I see China as a long term threat while I view Russia as an immediate threat. Russia has and continues to launch countless cyber attacks against the United States. Remember the Colonial Pipeline incident? They have meddled in U.S. elections not to support one party over another, but o create division in order to weaken the U.S. Russia is now as much as it has ever been a clear and present danger to the U.S.

Now when I first entered this read I asked you why you thought Ukraine was a lost cause. Above, you made a comment about people only watching T.V. and Twitter. Now I can’t say I’ve gone very far beyond that. But I have found two sources that at least appear to try to do an objective analysis.

First is a YouTuber that goes by Perun. Here is a link to his YouTube channel. However, he shoes a video nearly every week.

https://www.youtube.com/@PerunAU


Now I know nothing about him other than he appears to be Australian and either has been trained or is self-trained as an open source intelligence analyst. He also admits to being pro-Ukraine. But in my opinion he does a very good job of doing an objective analysis of the military aspect of the ongoing conflict.

Another source that I found that does a good job of objective analysis is the Institute for the Study of War. You can find their website here:

https://www.understandingwar.org/

Again, these are two that I’ve found. But I’m happy to look at any other sources.

quote:

Originally posted by echidna:
Why everybody is treating this as a charity case which appeared on our doorstep out of the blue? It's not. We took the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal (complete with delivery vehicles like ICBMs, strategic bombers and cruise missiles) from Uhkraine in 1994 in exchange to guaranteing their sovereignty and territorial integrity. The other guarantors were Russia, UK and France. Russia is the one violating it. In fact, many of cruise missiles now being lobbed into apartment buildings and civilian infrastructure are from the stash of ~650 Ukraine turned over to Russia as part of that very agreement. And they are launched from formerly Ukrainian strategic bombers.

We walk away from our obligations now and the whole world will take notice that the only way for a non-NATO country to stay independent next to an aggressive neighbor is to get nukes ASAP.

Like him or not, Zelensky's personality and antics have nothing to do with the reasons the US is involved in that conflict.

And the United States promised The Soviet Union that if Germany was allowed to reunify, and the Soviet military withdrew to Russia, NATO would not move 1 inch to the East. Well they did move East, under Russian protest.

So here we are.

“Facts are stubborn things.” ~ John Adams @ the Boston Massacre trial

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
What surprises is that you don’t see Russia as being just as much a threat as China. I see China as a long term threat while I view Russia as an immediate threat. Russia has and continues to launch countless cyber attacks against the United States. Remember the Colonial Pipeline incident?

So does China!

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
They have meddled in U.S. elections not to support one party over another, but o create division in order to weaken the U.S. Russia is now as much as it has ever been a clear and present danger to the U.S.

You're even using the legacy state media/establishment talking point here...Russia has been 'meddling' and attempting to 'interfere in our elections' since the 1950s! We do that too, and to a VERY Large extent...Honestly, WE do it EVERYWHERE, and probably more that ANYONE else! We've done it in Ukraine, even orchestrating a coup there! We recently did so in Hungary and we did it in Brazil just this past year! Heck, under BHO, we did it in Israel, undermining Netanyahu, and they're one of our allies! And surprisingly (NOT!), all of OUR most recent 'meddling' was done in support of leftist candidates!

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:

quote:

Originally posted by echidna:
Why everybody is treating this as a charity case which appeared on our doorstep out of the blue? It's not. We took the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal (complete with delivery vehicles like ICBMs, strategic bombers and cruise missiles) from Uhkraine in 1994 in exchange to guaranteing their sovereignty and territorial integrity. The other guarantors were Russia, UK and France. Russia is the one violating it. In fact, many of cruise missiles now being lobbed into apartment buildings and civilian infrastructure are from the stash of ~650 Ukraine turned over to Russia as part of that very agreement. And they are launched from formerly Ukrainian strategic bombers.

We walk away from our obligations now and the whole world will take notice that the only way for a non-NATO country to stay independent next to an aggressive neighbor is to get nukes ASAP.

Like him or not, Zelensky's personality and antics have nothing to do with the reasons the US is involved in that conflict.

And the United States promised The Soviet Union that if Germany was allowed to reunify, and the Soviet military withdrew to Russia, NATO would not move 1 inch to the East. Well they did move East, under Russian protest.

So here we are.

Yet Finland and Sweden joins NATO. And here we are
“Poor Neville Chamberlain believed he could trust with Hitler. He was wrong. But I don’t think I’m wrong about Stalin.” - Churchill
And here we are with Putin

Europe needs to decide if they want Russia to have Ukraine or if they want to fore the Russians out themselves.