quote:

Some will read this and declare me to be hopelessly callous …

Count me in. I've been "callous" ever since this started. Not one American dollar (unfortunately that ship has already sailed), let alone (potentially) life, for Ukraine. If they wanted weapons, they could have bought them and been fortifying their positions with all the cash they're flush with while Russia was marshaling its forces, which wasn't exactly a secret or surprise. And the comparisons to Winston Churchill? It would be fucking laughable if it weren't so serious. Did Churchill give interviews to Vogue magazine (a British edition did exist then) while his country was being bombed as a prelude to invasion? Did his wife go abroad on shopping sprees? Hell no.

Amen Brother- Time to give Zelensky some tough love and tell him it's over. He needs to accept a dictated peace and move on.

The graft and curroption during the rebuilding will be epic.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
If I may ask, Para, what is your basis for your assessment that Ukraine cannot prevail in this war?

Without the entire world holding Zelenskyy's hand, what do you think would have happened? Today- right now- if we hadn't been throwing billions at crooked Ukraine, who do you think might be sitting in the President's office in Kyiv?

I do not believe that it is certain that it would be Putin. And while the U.S. and other Western nations are providing substantial support, I would hardly characterize it as “holding their hand”. Unlike the failed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is Ukrainians who are fighting and dying on the front lines, not Americans.

So here we have been handed an opportunity to finish the work the Ronald Reagan started 40 years ago and once and for all of this Russian filth and have an opportunity to test some of our latest generation weapon systems in a high intensity conflict environment. (The same weapon systems we would use in a conflict with China.)

I don’t see any downside in the U.S. continuing to support Ukraine.

I don't like Zelenskyy. There are corrupt people in politics in his country. Just as there are corrupt politicians in our country!!

I support the people of Ukraine, and hope they win this war, with as little more destruction as possible, and take back the rest of their country from Putin's invasion. The Ukrainian people are going to need our help to do it.

You can support it, not support it, whatever you want, but I am telling you that I am sick of this ridiculous charade and all the propaganda and the fools draining our coffers. We've done more than enough, and now, they need to take our billions of dollars in cash and material and sink or swim on their own.

The United States cannot take on the miseries of the entire world and we need to tend to our own problems. Perhaps you haven't noticed that we have a few.

As firm as you are in your position, I am as firm in mine.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
UKR has been a purposeful scam on the trusting, good natured American citizen.

More like a money laundering scheme for the politicians.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
I don’t see any downside in the U.S. continuing to support Ukraine.

Wow.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
I don’t see any downside in the U.S. continuing to support Ukraine.

Wow.

yeah, that statement shows an incredible lack of imagination or forethought.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by parabellum:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Broadside:

<<Snip>>

I don’t see any downside in the U.S. continuing to support Ukraine.

In no particular order let me offer a couple

* The "sliperey slope" that we have so often followed, a $million here a $billion there, an observer here an advisor there, A SEAL Team here, A special Forces Team there, A Ranger Regiment here, the 1st Marines there, A Recon flight here, An F-22 Pilot paraded through a street then followed by a call to "Do Something!"

* The money anuerism, worse then above and we have no idea where it's going.

* A Twitter argument here, a street demonstration there, A University shuts down and the student body marches, a day later a student's shot and a million moms are outraged.

* A lethal version of FAFO. Our intel is wrong. Maybe some of it's right, but it's not all right and we will walk into a Shit Show where we have the wrong winter boots(or whatever)

* There's more but I'll I'll leave with my personal favorite: The Draft. The most unfair, destructive, divisive and inefficient way to fight a war imaginable and a war would spool it up. This isn't The sandbox or the rockpile, this is face to face with a relentless enemy that had shown it is ruthless to any enemy and no regard to their own losses.

So some of us Want war some don't want war but once the flares go up and the whistles start all bets are off, so forgive me for not thinking there is no downside. There is always a downside, always. The question is how big, how bad, how long and who's son?

We've wiped out the deficit, balanced the budget and our coffers are overflowing with a couple of trillion dollars, so, we've got money to burn. So, yeah, there's no downside to continuing to throw entire planeloads of hundred dollar bills at a corrupt foreign government.

We're so flush with cash that if we don't throw billions of it away, we won't have anywhere to sit. Yep.

Yesterday, a pallet of about a million and a half dollars slid off my roof. Scared the Hell out of my and damn near killed my cat. I guess the ropes I had fashioned out of excess currency gave way.

Ukranians may be fighting and dying, but many not their choice. Sealed borders and forced conscription have destroyed much of the population. Politically connected and wealthy escape the consequences once again. This is a tragedy mainly of NATO's making. Once again, the American voters did not get a vote. It is a strange thing to be brought up with Russia bad- only now to wonder is anything we have been taught has ever been true.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
So here we have been handed an opportunity to finish the work the Ronald Reagan started 40 years ago and once and for all of this Russian filth and have an opportunity to test some of our latest generation weapon systems in a high intensity conflict environment. (The same weapon systems we would use in a conflict with China.)

Ukraine isn't going to finish anything, let alone Russia. That, as a goal, is the fucking problem. It has shifted from wanting to push an invading force out of Ukraine to destroying Russia. How long that takes, and what the world looks like after doesn't seem to be much of a consideration to those advocating this. I'm willing to forego our involvement in what will become a global conflict at the cost of Ukraine. You're wanting Russia destroyed at what cost?

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
I don’t see any downside in the U.S. continuing to support Ukraine.

Then folks like yourself with no imagination or capacity for weighing consequences need to pipe down with your hawkish bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by oldbill123:
Sealed borders and forced conscription have destroyed much of the population. Politically connected and wealthy escape the consequences once again.

Do you realize that what you wrote here about Ukraine applies to Russia in spades?

For those that are worried about escalation, if Russia could escalate any more at this point they would have done so. In a year they have had at least 100,000 killed and probably twice that many wounded.

And if you are referring to Russia’s nuclear threats, the very fact that they even threaten to use nuclear weapons shows that they are a danger to he world that needs to dealt with. Better now than later.

And how do you deal with a nuclear power?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
And how do you deal with a nuclear power?

Sorry, Para. I assume that question was directed to me and I went to bed shortly after posting my last post.

I think you are asking the wrong question and will inevitably end up with the wrong answer.

I believe the question you should be asking is do we deal with an autocratic regime that is willing to use terror and threats of nuclear conflict to get what it wants. I think the answer is to do exactly what we are doing in Ukraine right now.

Although I will freely admit that we should also give them weapons that will allow them to strike into Russia proper.

Great thread and it's encouraging that many people see the reality. This was a regional conflict from day one...that's why it's so important to these people to pretend Russia is bent on world dominance. The US taxpayer has no interests in Ukraine. When the China/Taiwan situation blows up, we'll be kicking ourselves for expending all our resources in a corrupt shithole.

Peace in our time huh?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
And how do you deal with a nuclear power?

FIRST STRIKE! Then we WIN!

UNDEFEATED WW CHAMPIONS!

USA! USA! USA!




While it is unfortunate, it is simply “business” at this point being conducted via proxy war. Money laundering and influence peddling at the grandest, most perverse scale possible.

The oligarchs profit, the politicians profit, the military industrial complex profit, the banks profit. Mrs. Zelenskyy gets a world tour shopping spree and the sheep in this country get to “feel” those wonderfully warm emotions they are addicted to thinking they are doing “good”.


Think of it like the parade of drivers on the off-ramp handing a fiver to the poor sad looking fellow with the heartfelt and homecrafted cardboard sign proclaiming their personal misery, asking ”Anything helps…” but on a global level.

Those folks in their cars don’t give a soft cold shit about the guy with the sign, how he got there, the choices he made, his drug use, or mental illness. They do however want to “feel” like they care and that they “did something”, so they toss some inconsequential amount of money at the fellow, pat themselves on the back sure in the belief they are a “good person”.

Then they go on about their way with no concern or care if they just supported a guy who “earns” nearly as much in 5 hours begging (tax free) as they do working an 8 hour day, covered a drug addict’s next high, or enabled a mentally ill person to continue refusing treatment which could save their life. Doesn’t matter to them, because they “did something”.


Throwing money at a problem frequently just drags out the inevitable and, son of a gun, it is amazing how fast problems actually get solved once the money dries up. It’ll be painful, but solutions to problems always are in one way or another. Sometimes you just need to rip the bandaid off and get it over with.

Along the way “We the People” get screwed. Our taxes, our children and grand children’s taxes, our sons and daughters serving as chattel in this real life game of “Risk” fighting, funding, or supporting wars we (the US) have little at stake in other than making more money for our elites.


It sucks the number of Ukrainians, Russians, and everyone else dying in this sick game. What sucks more is that those people don’t see how little they matter to their own governments and allow themselves to be wasted in such folly.

War is hell, there are people in power in this world that strive to make it more hellish for their own profit and pleasure. Those folks are some seriously twisted fucks and until they are dealt with, nothing will change.


I’m ready for the comet…

It is indeed sick that one mans folly can destroy an entire country and kill everyone and every thing in the name of 20 guys in nazi masks with AKs. Putin is a twisted human. Even the Russian people want him gone. I guess if Ukraine cannot gain back what they want, with the current loads of weapons, then they should just leave their country and let Russia have it. Then we can see who is next on his list. I hope that monster catches a bullet. And just as this man is one example of too much power, we have much the same coming in x.i.ping in china. Another dictator with a bunch if fire crackers and a hard on to kill.

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:
Peace in our time huh?

More like not our problem.

Ukraine is Europe's area of concern. Taiwan, the Pacific, Central/South America are ours. Europe should have looked back at history and planned for the future to take care of issues on their own doorstep, with their own resources.