quote:

Originally posted by Herkdriver:
My words were harsh. You struck a raw place. Blame the leadership as a whole, yes. I took this as a personal attack. If not intended as such I offer my apologies.

No apologies necessary. Im a-emotional about it all, and none of it is easy, especially right now. Just calling the tragedy as i see it. Despite all my influence, and opportunities, i have to live with the fact i failed at changing enough minds to make a difference.

With this unfolding drama seeming so familiar in many ways, I thought of the Errol Morris film, The Fog of War, with Robert McNamara reflecting on the mistakes made before and how we don’t seem to learn.
I found this interview with them both and it’s kind of sad to see the lessons that never seem to be remembered when they could prevent a catastrophe like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqJGoyZBa4g

God damn it. This shit hurts. Fuck, I did not think it would hit me this hard. I fucking knew this would happen but fuck. What a god damn waste of blood and lives. Shit.

Both of you guys are looking for reasons to vent and rage, rightfully so but, you're also seeing past each others statements.
kiwikurt, your blame for this entire campaign rightfully lays at the feet of SENIOR MILITARY leadership and political representatives. I think if you'd just made that one clarification, Herk wouldn't have gotten so worked-up.
Herkdriver, there's nothing posted by kiwikurt referring to an 'O vs E' issue. While the officer blame-game is tired and lazy be those who repeat it, there's nothing in the post to suggest so.
Lets make sure we're directing fire to the right places and be clear about it. This is gonna be a crappy week or, so with all the striking images.

While everyone is trying to blame Biden for this pathetic chapter in history, much blame goes to DoD and the stars in the E-ring & beyond. Trump requested a drawdown plan when he took office and expected some options within 2-years, Mattis & team never delivered except excuses; they dragged their feet and were insubordinate.

We all knew it was time to get out but, DoD, CENTCOM, State and others continued their Pollyanna explanations while Congress failed to call anybody out. Nobody in the SASC had the guts to hold any general's feet to the fire. Now State is scrambling to figure-out how to evacuate those who worked with us and will be marked for death; they had at least 4+ years to figure out this process. The idea was to bring them to Qatar....but, nobody tried to talk to anybody in the Qatari govt. There appears to be an epic amount of poor planning at the senior-level (once again), and perhaps its the admin dithering and picking apart established contingencies.

I am not going to watch or follow this shit show. I will go with what was posted as a quote from our previous head of state.

I disagreed with 41 when he decided bring thousand of supporters here as some kind of a "you helped me so I will help you bullshit.

Do I wish to see men beheaded and girls and women raped. No.

But when you decide to help an invading force there to help you help yourself. You better damn well know that in the end you and your friends better be willing to handle the aftermath when they leave. Because this is what happens if you don't.

Lastly, if the shit happens on your watch. You are responsible, plain and simple. It is on you ole'boy. It is what you signed up for.

I seem to recall that several years into this goat rope, that it was loudly announced that the Taliban was "defeated". ISIS too.
It now looks like that was not the case. For a defeated enemy, they sure took over the country pretty quickly.

lotta pain right now. Damn the feels. Took a 45 min convo with my sis and bil to talk me down. Shit.

I didn’t/don’t want to stay there forever. I also was never into trying to rebuild the country.

I had zero problems with Trump asking what are we still there for?

I do feel this exit was poorly planned & a shit show for the big screen. For the most part, it was destined to revert back to historical averages.

If overt anti-USA training camps become commonplace again, we can deal with them. If that were to happen, let’s skip the roads & school rebuilding.

Taxiing for takeoff with people clinging to landing gear.



A pair of Apache AH-64’s were used to clear runway for C-17 departure.



Civilian side of airport.



Latest video from Kabul Airport monday morning… Total Chaos…

Herk,

Your efforts and the lives of your friends will be remembered by me…and I’m sure, many others.

The insanity of war lays its burdens on the men who fight and give their all.

As your mind tries to rationalize this clusterfuck, please reach out and fell the prayers from all of us who have you in our thoughts and prayers.

Three stowaways 'fall to their deaths from plane' and five are killed at airport as increasingly desperate Afghans climb on MOVING US Air Force jet as they flee from Taliban: All US Embassy staff have now been evacuated

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne...e-people-killed.html

The Wall Street Journal opinion piece.
=======================================================

In Afghanistan, the Tragic Toll of Washington Delusion
Pundits repeat the mantra that there was ‘no military solution.’ The Taliban seem to have come up with one.

Pundits repeat the mantra that there was ‘no military solution.’ The Taliban seem to have come up with one.

By H.R. McMaster and Bradley Bowman
Aug. 15, 2021 1:09 pm ET

The world is witnessing in Afghanistan a vivid and painful display of what happens when leaders in Washington delude themselves regarding persistent threats, the nature of America’s enemies and the ability to end wars by simply going home.

On April 14, ignoring predictions of dire consequences, President Biden announced that all U.S. forces would depart by Sept. 11—20 years to the day after jihadist terrorists used their safe haven in the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan to launch the deadliest terrorist attack in history.

As U.S. forces departed, the Taliban seized the initiative and launched an offensive on Afghan cities, taking control of the large majority of provinces in 11 days. The takeovers in the north exposed the Taliban’s plan, along with al Qaeda, to isolate and overthrow the elected government in Kabul and subjugate the country under its brutal form of Shariah. The fall of Kandahar on Thursday gave the Taliban a major symbolic victory in the ideological center of the antimodernist and misogynist movement. The fall of Ghazni, Laghman, Logar and Paktia provinces on Kabul’s doorstep enabled the disaster we are now seeing in the capital.

In areas they conquer, the Taliban conduct mass executions and assassinate journalists and anyone else who might oppose their perverted theocratic dictatorship. The Taliban force women to “marry” terrorists, who rape them, force them to wear the burqa and otherwise strip them of rights they have enjoyed for nearly two decades. Taking stock of this catastrophe and determining what might be done to limit the damage requires a rejection of Washington’s fantasy and an acknowledgment of Afghanistan’s reality.

In Washington, U.S. forces supposedly had to leave to end a costly “forever war.” But when Mr. Biden made the decision to withdraw, no more than 3,500 U.S. troops were left in Afghanistan. They were supporting Afghans who were taking the brunt of the fight, and not a single American soldier had been killed in combat in a year and a half.

In Washington, the envisioned withdrawal would be safe, inconsequential, and irreversible. But, as in Iraq in 2011, the enemy has a say. American troops are already redeploying to Afghanistan, just as troops returned to Iraq in 2014 after al Qaeda returned under the name of ISIS. In Washington, leaders described the jihadist threat as having moved from Afghanistan. But the Afghanistan- Pakistan region remains an epicenter for terrorism. More than 20 U.S.-designated terrorist organizations call the region home, and many remain determined to murder Americans and our allies.

Some in Washington drew a bold line between the Taliban and al Qaeda. In reality, those groups are intertwined, and a Taliban victory is a victory for the group that murdered nearly 3,000 innocents on 9/11.

Envoys from Washington pressured the Afghan government last year to release 5,000 prisoners as an incentive for the Taliban to make peace. The Taliban viewed the release as a sign of weakness and an opportunity to replenish its forces in anticipation of its offensive.

Supposed experts pronounced from Washington that any lingering threats in Afghanistan could be struck from a distance with “over the horizon” capabilities. But that approach failed in the 1990s and is failing again now. U.S. aircraft flying from the Persian Gulf to conduct sporadic air strikes can’t stop the Taliban’s onslaught. Without U.S.-enabled military pressure against terrorist organizations from bases in Afghanistan, those groups will gain the breathing space they need to plan, prepare and carry out international terror attacks.

Negotiators from Washington pursued diplomatic engagement with a brutal and determined enemy without complementary military action and after announcing our intention to withdraw. The late George Shultz’s observation holds true: “Negotiations are a euphemism for capitulation if the shadow of power is not cast across the bargaining table.” Zalmay Khalilzad’s pleas to the Taliban to forgo attacking the U.S. Embassy were a humiliating consequence. From Washington one hears that the “international community” must express its disappointment at the Taliban for failing to attenuate the catastrophe. The idea that the Taliban is concerned about its reputation in New York or Geneva would be laughable if the circumstances weren’t so grim.

Pundits in Washington repeat the mantra that there was “no military solution” in Afghanistan. The Taliban seem to have come up with one.

Self-styled strategists in Washington still rationalize the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan as necessary to focus on China and great-power competition. But the refusal to provide the Afghan people the support necessary to stem a humanitarian catastrophe emboldens China, Russia and other adversaries eager to proclaim the U.S. an unreliable partner and a declining power.

Calls from Washington urged Afghans to fight harder. But that insults the memory of tens of thousands of Afghans who made the ultimate sacrifice in the fight against our common enemies and underestimates the psychological blow from America’s sudden abandonment.

The gap between fantasy in Washington and reality in Afghanistan explains how we have arrived at this point. The end of self-delusion is necessary if there is any hope of mitigating a growing disaster that won’t stay confined to the Middle East and South Asia.

The Biden administration ignored the warnings, and now the Afghan president has fled and Kabul is falling to the Taliban. The administration must focus on immediately evacuating Americans to safety, then use any remaining time to evacuate Afghans who worked with the U.S. and now understandably fear retribution from the Taliban.

Once that task is complete, the U.S., along with willing international partners, should begin the painstaking work of mitigating the humanitarian and security catastrophe. But as we learned 20 years ago on Sept. 11, jihadist terror in Afghanistan won’t stay in Afghanistan.

Mr. McMaster, a retired U.S. Army lieutenant general, served as White House national security adviser, 2017-18. He is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and chairman of the Center on Military and Political Power at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. Mr. Bowman is the center’s senior director.

LINK

And for those who don't like to read, another short, but cogent Sky News commentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQmcXgXyKU

Someone needs to make a meme with Biden's "“There’s going to be no circumstance where you are going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan,” he added. “It is not at all comparable.”" statement on top of a photo of these people being whisked out of Afghanistan on the C17.

It needs to get out on the internet.

https://www.breitbart.com/poli...-seizes-afghanistan/

White House press secretary Jen Psaki appears to have begun her vacation on Sunday as the Taliban continues seizing Afghanistan.

An email sent to Psaki by Breitbart News was returned with an auto-reply message noting that the White House press secretary is on vacation between August 15th through the 22nd.

The email auto-reply message asks reporters to reach out with questions to deputy press secretaries Karine Jean-Pierre, Christopher Meagher, or Andrew Bates.

It is unclear if Psaki has canceled her vacation after her boss, President Joe Biden, faces the biggest foreign policy disaster of his presidency.

Typically, White House staff schedule their vacations around the president’s time off in August when Congress leaves Washington, DC, for their own recess.

But a foreign policy incident of this magnitude usually brings all top-level aides back to work in times of crisis.

President Biden has not indicated any shift in his own vacations plans.

UK PM Boris Johnson just recalled Parliament back from vacation over this, but Senile Joe and Kackling Kamala could care less. Queen Nancy won't do shit with the House.

Maybe Psaki could have her deputy handle things while she's on vacation?

So tell me, looking at all the video from the airport, where are the women? The children?

quote:

Originally posted by Shaql:
Someone needs to make a meme with Biden's "“There’s going to be no circumstance where you are going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan,” he added. “It is not at all comparable.”" statement on top of a photo of these people being whisked out of Afghanistan on the C17.

It needs to get out on the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by RoverSig:
To put the evacuation in perspective -- there are a lot of people who NEED to get out of Afghanistan. On 15 August, a single C-17, REACH 871, evacuated 800 people in one lift. (There may be other aircraft with similarly expansive numbers of people being taken on board).

https://www.thedrive.com/the-w...17-cargo-jet-reports

Our military service members are performing difficult and dangerous duty -- again -- simply because it needs to be done.

I’m following a thread on another forum by a US citizen working under contract in Kabaul.

At 0545 EDT he posted a single pic of the packed C-17 he got out on. He guessed > 600 souls on board.

It was also interesting to note the predominance of plate carriers with full magazine pouches, M-4s with magazines in the well, and the occasional grenade spoon sneaking out of the pouch of one of the folks in the picture. Guess the hazmat and weapons carriage regulations (e.g., firearms in checked luggage only ) are being ignored.

His post also stated they were COVID castaways in Qatar, marooned on that plane unable to disembark because they’d not had Shanghai Shivers Snot Slurp tests.

At the time he posted they were SIX hours on the ground, no food, water, or toilets, in a plane he estimated to have an inside temperature over 120°F. Flights are now diverting to another Persian Gulf emirate but there is a NOTAM that planes from Afghanistan carrying passengers need to divert to Kuwait.

President Biden, Vice President Harris, and their cabinet, handlers, and owners managed to make the United States look incompetent and weak, on the world stage.

What a cluster fuck.

The only bright lining to an otherwise total failure is the United States is, at long last, the fuck out of Afghanistan (I hope!).

Yes we needed to get out of Afghanistan. But not like this. I am reminded of April 29, 1975. How soon we forget our past errors. As a Vietnam veteran this, and the Vietnam debacle, are moments of national shame that can never be reconciled. Shame on us for leaving friends to dangle.

But lest we forget how we got here in the first place...

When Bush won, he brought with him a cabal of staffers broadly known as "neoconservatives" who distinguished themselves from traditional Republicans by ignoring deficit spending and strongly supporting interventionist foreign policy with a heavy emphasis on protecting and advancing America's petro-allies in the Middle East. Months after September 11, 2001, the Bush Administration diverted America's response to terrorism by seeking a revenge war in Iraq.

Oh, what a bitter harvest we have reaped.

History acquitted those chicken-little voices that warned of never-ending wars, ballooning deficits, and the dangers of bloated and politicized intelligence agencies. I admit it. I was wrong about Bush. He was a disaster.

We're reminded of this point as we watch the humiliating withdrawal of U.S. forces in Afghanistan. Bush's critics, who seemed so wrong at the time, have been proven right in the sweep of history. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars turned into the very quagmires that the liberals predicted. The Intelligence Agencies were allowed to pursue and harass Muslims in the United States -- even setting some up in "Truman Show"-style prosecutions in which the FBI planned and financed almost every detail of terrorism plots to ensnare lonely, mentally disabled Muslim men. The civil liberties of these "terrorists" didn't seem very important at the time. The liberals warned that these tactics set dangerous precedents that might later be applied to larger and larger swaths of the public.So would any of this have been different had Al Gore been elected president? . . .

. . . The awful legacy of George Bush split the Republican party during the 2016 presidential campaign. When Trump correctly criticized neocons for their fruitless wars, they became enraged. Until Trump, the pseudo-intellectual near-imperialists wrapped themselves in a protective costume of patriotic rhetoric. Then Trump said the obvious truth that nobody dared speak: these wars are bad for American interests abroad and at home. The Bush Republicans became Hillary Clinton supporters. . .

Thanks to Bush, no party now advocates for fiscal restraint or true free-market principles. Yet another part of Bush’s awful legacy is a culture of debt tolerance that has led us to a catastrophic greater-than-GDP public debt one normally associates with a Third-World country.

. . . What did nearly two decades in Afghanistan and Iraq buy us? Thousands of American dead and trillions more in debt, and Afghanistan is swiftly returning to its pre-invasion configuration. Lots of government contractors and retired generals grew very rich pouring American treasure into the land-locked and barren land. The Bushes themselves have become fabulously wealthy, worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Meanwhile it will take many more years for America to recover from their endless wars and crippling debt.

https://amgreatness.com/2021/0...h-ruined-everything/