quote:

Originally posted by DougE:

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by DougE:
You never believed in the first place.

1 John 2:19
New American Standard Bible

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [a]it would be evident that they all are not of us.

Stop that. You can’t blame someone when they’ve never been taught who the Creator really is. Just god is most likely all he’s ever heard. Fear of accidentally saying the special word “god” in an off-putting way. Saying “god” followed by “damn” isn’t the sin many believe it to be.


I’d rather you’d have posted this instead:
Romans 10:14-15
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! …

The charge is laid on the church not this man.

because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

I’m not sure Romans 1 applies as it’s talking about turning away and worshiping idols. But ok. Sure nature teaches that God is but not who God is. That’s why it talks about worshiping the creation rather than the Creator.

I’m tired of churchy platitudes and out of context teachings. I’ve seen pastors tell people who’s family member has died that “god is in control”. Great, how very unhelpful. You can keep posting unhelpful verses or you can help a man out. Either way, go for it.

Gambit123 has some friends here and I’m going to be counted among them.

quote:

Originally posted by DougE:
You never believed in the first place.

1 John 2:19
New American Standard Bible

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [a]it would be evident that they all are not of us.

Arrogance and ignorance.

Who are you to tell someone you don’t know what they believe. OP has hit a low point but has not shared enough for you to tell him what he does or doesn’t believe.

quote:

Originally posted by dar185:
Arrogance and ignorance.

Who are you to tell someone you don’t know what they believe. OP has hit a low point but has not shared enough for you to tell him what he does or doesn’t believe.

It’s late. Maybe he’s tired. Everyone gets latitude tonight.

The story…

My wife and I inherited A small doggy named “Sophie” three weeks ago. My wife of 30 years is partially disabled due to a cerebral bleed that causes communication and balance issues.

She is also a very determined (hard headed)woman.

Against advice and common sense, she decided to walk Sophie, resulting in a bad fall, nothing broken, but a one inch facial laceration on the bridge of her nose bleeding a lot along with other bruises out of sight from the road and house.

She had neglected to take her Emergency Button that has Fall Detection as a feature; no cell phone either! She cannot get up by herself!

So, Sophie is now loose with her leash and in view of the street. A passing woman takes note of the loose doggy and pulls in to the driveway, gets out, and Sophie leads her to my wife around the corner of the house.

The woman has a history as a PE teacher and is very(!) strong.

She brings my wife into the house and we put a butterfly bandage on the nose cut and ice down the bruised knee - then to bed: now recovering well!

The obvious conclusion: God kept Sophie in the right place, had the PE teacher see and gave her understanding of the situation ; God had Sophie lead her to my wife, provided us with a woman with observation and skills, and guided her to my wife!

Too many parts to happen by accident or happenstance!! My belief is unconditional! Thank you Lord for your Blessings!

I also note that the woman is a devout Christian, one who is modest and practices her belief without fanfare in her business and personal life.

quote:

Originally posted by DougE:
You never believed in the first place.

1 John 2:19
New American Standard Bible

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [a]it would be evident that they all are not of us.

The OP is having a crisis of faith, and whether he feels this is a temporary or permanent situation he was wishing to unburden himself, maybe get some perspective, advice, or corroboration.

A man has reached out to say he is pain, whether physical, mental or spiritual. And your response is to kick him while he is down. What a good example of the suspicion of religion he is having.

Gambit, I don't know the details of what you are going through, but I hope you find some peace whatever that path is for you.

quote:

Originally posted by gambit123:
It's all just fairy tales.

You might want to check some actual history from back around the time when Christ was on the earth.

I can understand that people may change their beliefs, and no longer believe in God. In a class about 4 decades ago, there was a lively discussion of this topic.

I asked this question "Can anyone cite the law that allowed this universe to spring into existence out of nothing?" Silence.

I have read through the entire thread and find some true honesty here I admire.
And as a Physics major, am glad String theory was mentioned.

OP-
While I don't know your specifics of what brought you to this place now, but I can share my experience in the last year, that certainly rocked my faith.

In the last year and 2 weeks, I lost a marriage, my best friend died of colon cancer (he was one year younger than me), our shared riding buddy (who found my barn find Ducati), died two weekends ago, waiting on the autopsy for cause, I have been going through severe depression, losing 58 lbs in 2 months (not the right kind of diet either), etc...

I questioned my faith, God, and even living, at one point.

It took time for me to accept a certain inevitability, and point myself to the right direction for me. All of the above happened to me for one reason. I am living.

Bad things happen, good things happen and we circle the sun.
But what I believe in now, has only changed in definition.

Wavering happens as we live, and your point of view may change several times.

I am older, more pragmatic, but find a certain comfort in knowing "A higher power" exists, despite the good and bad happening on earth.

And Para is spot on, evil only exists in humans.

OP. I am glad you posted, as this has been a battle for me this year, and hope you find comfort in whatever decision you make.

quote:

Originally posted by Lunasee:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

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Originally posted by Lunasee:
Religion is merely the group marketing of personal Spirituality.

Yes, when you go to a restaurant, do you eat the menu?

You lost me.

Religious text is the menu.

Relative to spirituality and relationship with God, I’ve noted that people have ups and downs; myself included. I don’t believe God is someone on high whose job it is to rescue us from bad/evil.

I think we are here to refine ourselves and choose righteousness or evil. Trials come because in this life weak things become strong by pressing against resistance. We can’t know happiness or appreciate it unless we experience sadness etc.

Maybe look at it this way. Would you want to live for eternity with your child as an unrefined infant and all that comes with that or with that child as a being fully developed, strong in mind, body, character and spirit? I’d choose the latter and this life and all of its good and bad is how we become that.

This is the simplest explanation I can use for an internet discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by DougE:

You never believed in the first place.

And this right here folks is why I am an apostate.

It's not the religion, it's the ones who pretend to practice it.

Turning someone away has a particular penalty involving a rope and millstone.

You might want to brush up on your Job and see who his accusers were.

Your job isn't to accuse, but to help.

quote:

Your job isn't to accuse, but to help.

Right!
And who did Jesus criticize? The pretenders.
Who did he love? Sinners!

For me personally, God = nature. It's helpful for me to think of it as a neutral life force and not an organized religious practice or a man living in the sky.

The question should not be: "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?"

The question should be: "Why does man do such things to others?"

(the question asked and answered by each to himself)


When I am in the conversation with someone in a "spiritual crisis", I tell them to go full "Lt. Dan in the storm."

Rage against God. Go to Him and fight him. Yell, scream, demand an answer and an account. He can handle it.

He is not so fragile as the idols made with hands. He is not so weak, as the God created in our imagination. He is bigger than all of creation (the universe, as limited as we are in perceiving it, it is on order greater than we can imagine, and we can imagine a great deal).

But be willing to be "injured" in the process, as Jacob, Job, Jonah, Moses, and Jesus all "wrestled with God, in different ways, but also in the same ways. All of them "lost" something, but what they came away with was tremendously superior.

They lost the "self" that was "instead" of God, and gained God, instead.

To some, the loss seems unkind, unfair, unjust.

But to each, the realization and the place they ended up, they would contend that the perception some have, is incorrect.

And to the few that I have suggested to "go fight it out with Him", all came away and expressed that what I stated about those that "wrestle" with God in the book.

Not everyone has to "fight it out", some are able to manage with ease and grace. Nothing "wrong or shameful" with either. And nothing "superior or boastful" of either.


And if a man be found floundering in the water in great peril and shouting, will you stand on the shore and yell "You are drowning!" and do nothing else?

Of course that person is aware of their condition, they knew before you.

Help them. Or walk away, that they not perish with insult and a witness.

I don't believe in any established religion or share my faith with anyone else. To me my faith comes from within and is a relationship that is mine and mine alone.
I've never felt the presence of that in any church or through the words of any other person.

quote:

Originally posted by bdylan:
For me personally, God = nature. It's helpful for me to think of it as a neutral life force and not an organized religious practice or a man living in the sky.

It's true that the anthropomorphized image of God has impeded our understanding of God. God is not an immeasurably old man with white hair and a long flowing beard, clothed in robe and sandals. But God is in the clouds and in Heaven, because God is everywhere and is part of all things, and of time and space itself. That is the worst part of this humanoid image which was put into our minds when we were very young- we've made God a someone, who is somewhere else, and that separates us from the author of all things. God is somewhere else, yes, because God is everywhere. He's in the photons of light coming off the screen of the device you're using to read my words. He's the device itself, and the electrical current which powers it, the rocks from which the elements with which its materials were made, and on and on.

So, yes, God is nature, because God is everything. bendable's question "Do you believe in energy?" lends a clue to the mystery.

So, saying God is nature stops short of the truth. From whence did nature arise? Even beyond the elements and the energy which aggregated to form the elements, where did the empty field in which all this resides, come from? It all goes back to Leibniz and Aquinas. I would urge you to look a bit deeper.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
The question should be: "Why does man do such things to others?"

I assume most people get this. I think the crisis of faith occurs when it's not a case of man being sinful but things like natural disasters, babies with cancer, life not being fair, etc. In any case, I've been lucky not to question God in these situations. I don't blame God, question him, and I don't presume that I could be a better God thinking that if I were God, I wouldn't allow babies to get cancer.

^^^

Ah. It has been so long since I considered all of that being "on God", rather I have a different POV on all of it. But, as you mention it, I can understand that dilemma and how it would be a big part of such crisis.

Sort of how one who has eaten a good meal, is not thinking of those who hunger.

I need(ed) to be reminded, that my POV becomes narrow, when I am not looking outside of my soda straw.

I shall call you "Snapping twig in the forest of Sasquatch."

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:

quote:

Originally posted by DougE:
You never believed in the first place.

And this right here folks is why I am an apostate.

It's not the religion, it's the ones who pretend to practice it.

Indeed.

I once had the faith of a child. My parents told me there was a God above. I believed my parents.

The cracks began to form at an early age. I doubt I was more than ten or twelve years old. I can even tell you, to this day, when the first crack appeared and where I was. I was standing in the middle of our street with one of the brothers of a rather large neighborhood family. Devout Catholics, they were. He said something, I recall not what, and I replied with something like "Wouldn't that be a sin?" "It's all right," he replied. "I'll go to Confession on Saturday and be absolved." "Huh? You mean you can do all kinds of wrong during the week, go to Confession on Saturday, and the slate will be wiped clean?" "Yup!" he replied proudly.

That resulted in merely the first crack in my belief. It blew a gigantic hole in my respect for organized religion of any kind. (I understood the difference between "religion" and "faith" already. I was an early developer in many respects.)

(I later came to understand [not from him] that one need not merely confess their sins, but truly repent for them.)

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:


Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

That's an excellent quote