With age, I've come to some rather simplistic conclusions.

1: For all our advances, we’re still just knuckle dragging apes and barely scraping the surface of what the universe means.

2: The universe is a simple thing when compared to the concept of the Almighty.

3: Personally I’m more terrified of the thought that there’s nothing greater than myself than I am of the thought that there’s a higher power.

4: Faith is a beautiful/horrible/amazing thing. It can sustain you but if you have it, it can bring you down like a ton of bricks.

There are things I’m pissed off about but at the same time those things have forced me to grow both in faith and as a person. Not only am I not any angel, I’m a pathetic version of a devil, so with that said, I try each day not to be a judgmental prick. I fail. Daily. Refer back to Socrates. “True knowledge lies in knowing that you know nothing.”

Faith costs nothing. Hold on to it, even in the dark days.

Gambit, a couple of years ago, the wife and I went to visit a guy in Alaska, who was a cop with me in the 90’s. He’s a boat captain and is very busy with cruise tours in season. While there in Juneau, we did some things to fill the day, one of which was a boat ride up the Tracy Arm Fjord.

This was just supposed to be a time-killer, but actually was probably the pinnacle of the trip.
The glaciers, water falls, wildlife and the scenery was literally breath-taking. So much so that my wife and I basically just shook our heads at each other, thinking the same thing. All this was not happen stance or pick a word. A Master Creator did it.

I was raised in “the church”, usually 3 visits a week. Went to college, sewed my wild oats, then straightened up, got married and raised a family. Just like anybody else, events happened that made my faith come and go. Some religious courses on the New and Old Testament helped me grow up.

My faith still ebbs and flows but a handful of scriptures help to keep me grounded. Take 5 minutes and read them- (or don’t)-

Matthew 5:45
I Timothy 3:16
Hebrews 11:1
I Corinthians 10:13
Matthew 7:12 & Luke 6:31

Like others have said, if possible find some way to help somebody else. God is not out get good folks or bad. Hope you find a way to work it out.

quote:

Originally posted by SIG4EVA:
What you describe is very different from anything you would find in the Bible. I would suggest starting with the New Testament, who Christ is, why came and died, and why he was risen.

Well, I'm going to come from a different angle and this is what I was talking about earlier. SIG4EVA stated a very common and "churchy" reply to someone that is struggling. I'm not insulting but I am going to argue that you cannot understand the God of the bible from the new testament without a foundation of understanding what the words in the new testament meant to those it was written to and that all of it, ALL, was based on writings in the Tanakh. You have to know the Tanakh first. Not just reading the words but trying to understand what those words and sayings meant to the people that wrote them. Starting from the new testament is basically building your house on the sand. I'm sure you've heard that story. It just leads to disappointment and disillusionment. We are very literally witnessing it here.

Consider that the teachings of Jesus were mostly quotes from the Tanakh. The sermon on the mount was a retelling of Moses' teaching. You can't know that from starting from the end. Even the last words of Jesus on the cross "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani" weren't just a cry of anguish, it was pointing to Psalms 22 (they didn't have book title and number system we have now so they would remind you of a passage by stating it's introduction). Perhaps a prophetic fulfilment.

Do you believe in energy?

quote:

Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
Yes, string theory, quantum entanglement offer many clued.
The study of quantum physics has helped expand my pantheist beliefs and more to animist.
As we are all connected. Even after the body dies.
I can only hope that our memories are stored through quantum entanglement.

Perhaps that why some people can see echos of the dead.

Yes, string theory is fascinating. It requires something like 11 spatial dimensions. I have no issue believing that there can be beings that exist in dimensions above our perception that can see or manipulate our reality. It is easily meshed with belief and faith.

One thing that sticks in my craw is the "fairy tale" thing. We're better than that. It's no more than ad hominem and it's a bit grating. I have a hard time not dismissing it outright.

I have been in a similar spot to you on many occasions and will likely be there again. While I have never lost faith in God completely I have been of the idea of pure anger with him and even been to the point of think he has no care for me at all.
Thankfully so far I have been shown otherwise on each occasion.

Your main question in your original post somewhat centers around the age old question of why does God let horrible things happen to good people?

The best explanation/illustration I have ever come across is in the book and movie The Shack.
I am not even going to try to summarize it myself as I will just screw it up.
If you have not read or watched it I highly suggest both.

Screaming Cockatoo brought up another point that is in the top tier of these critical questions that come along with being born I think. That being for whatever reason, what we do matters.

We can torpedo our life. We can try and burn it all down. We can do our worst to torture every being as hard as we can and kill as many as possible. We can live as close to Christ as possible. Etc.

Seems like intention is everything. And that works on every level. (unless we are talking about the lack of rule of law in this country)

After that, just don't be a pussy.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Your main question in your original post somewhat centers around the age old question of why does God let horrible things happen to good people?

The best explanation I've heard was that the Creator desires a relationship way more than offering comfort at every turn.

Black, I'm going to have to look at that movie. I hadn't heard of it.

I don't think you have given up on A GOD - just on the God which others have created and sold to you. The very concept that we mortals can even conceive of the form and being of a God with our limited brain power and its very restricted ability to reason and understand is laughable to me.

After observing the extreme orderliness of our own little natural world on earth, much less the vastness of the universe and it's extreme unknowns make me believe there is a God or Gods that I truly don't comprehend. Whether that God is involved in our daily lives and our ultimate fate, I cannot say. I want to believe that there have been times He, it, they have intervened on my behalf, but I can't prove it. But I can say my belief, on my own terms, has made my life more bearable and allowed me to enjoy the 77 years of interaction with the flawed human race (including myself).

Para, thanks for mentioning St. Thomas Aquinas.
Its been a long time since I thought about him.

Gotta go back and re-read about his life & times.
I appreciate learning. And re-learning.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Your main question in your original post somewhat centers around the age old question of why does God let horrible things happen to good people?

The best explanation I've heard was that the Creator desires a relationship way more than offering comfort at every turn.

Black, I'm going to have to look at that movie. I hadn't heard of it.

I like that explanation as well.
As for The Shack the movie is available on Netflix currently. Though I highly suggest reading the book first, it is by William Paul Young It’s an easy read but emotionally difficult one especially if one has children.

quote:

Originally posted by gambit123:
I just feel like there is nothing there. I pray, use to go to church. I try to be a good person. Why does it feel like he's punishing good people for no reason. They say everything happens for a reason but that's horse shit. Im just starting to think and and religion is horse shit.

I'm just giving you feedback based on what you said.

What made you used to feel there is a god? Whatever made you feel there is a god is suspect because feelings are so ephemeral. So often I didn't feel like getting up and going to work. If I based my worldview on those feelings, I'd be an utter failure in life.

You thought it noteworthy to mention you pray, you go to church, and you try to be a good person. What do those things have to do whether god is?

You think the idea that everything happens for a reason is horseshit and that you think religion is horseshit. You may be right that the idea that everything happens for a reason is horseshit and along with religion is also horseshit. But... what do those things have to do whether god is?

I'm a student of critical thinking. I try to ensure that my belief system is based on premises that I've examined for truthfulness and that the rational inferences I use to draw my conclusions / belief system from my premises are valid.

I suggest you consider what criteria you require in order for you to draw a conclusion whether there is a god. Pressure test that criteria to see if it makes sense in allowing you to determine whether god is and excluding any other influence. For example, if you decide that if you were to throw a coin 100 times and it came up heads and that will be your criteria, that's just simply introducing the influence of probabilities. You may think it's an absurd example but, on the other hand, I also think letting my feelings determine whether I believe god exists is also absurd.

At the very least, if you go through what I suggested, you'd remove any uncertainty as to whether you'll believe the opposite of what you believe today. You've gone through the methodology and be confident in your decision process.

The whole concept of having faith has always been of interest to me. The wife and I are church goers most of the time and we try to live our life as good Christians as best we can.

The other day, the wife got home from her bible study group she goes to occasionally and sat down next to me on the sofa looking concerned and said that she doesn't feel like she has as much "faith" as some of the other ladies. I asked her what exactly she meant by that and she replied that they never miss a Sunday going to church and volunteer endlessly to help with church functions. She then said that they just must have more faith that she does. I looked at her and asked her if she believes in God and that Christ died on the cross to save us from our sins. She said "of course I do". Then you have all the faith you need I told her.

It seems to me that people do different things with their faith for a number of reasons. It doesn't mean that their faith is better or stronger. Faith may be a "gift" I guess but I am inclined to believe that faith comes to you thru a more "reasoned" manner. It is something you thought about, probably researched, and then accepted that faith (or not) and lived your life accordingly.

That's my take anyways. I do want to say that Para's discussions in this thread are exceptional. I enjoyed reading them and want to thank him for that.

Ok, so you don't believe in God.
Nothing out there saying that you have to.

But you said in your post "I try to be a good person".
Don't stop doing that! That's important!

I'm a catholic raised agnostic. I live my life as if I will be held accountable. I don't pretend to know any of the bigger answers, and I think those that propound to know, are simply fleecing their flock.

I'll also never try to sell my belief system to anyone else, nor will I criticize another for theirs.

Something caused the Big Bang.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Lunasee:
Religion is merely the group marketing of personal Spirituality.

Yes, when you go to a restaurant, do you eat the menu?

You lost me.

quote:

Originally posted by gambit123:
I just feel like there is nothing there. I pray, use to go to church. I try to be a good person. Why does it feel like he's punishing good people for no reason. They say everything happens for a reason but that's horse shit. Im just starting to think and and religion is horse shit.

I've struggled with faith vs religion a lot over the years, and I broke down what I really believe: God is love.

My faith tells me that when I see you or others hurting, I want to help you heal; when I have hurt, others have wanted to help heal me. Whether you call it agape or mettā or any other word, I have faith that we are loved and that we have the capacity to love others. That alone is evidence enough of God for me.

Please don't forget you are loved by so many people. And if you're hurting, then you're my brother and I love you too.

You never believed in the first place.

1 John 2:19
New American Standard Bible

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [a]it would be evident that they all are not of us.

quote:

Originally posted by DougE:
You never believed in the first place.

1 John 2:19
New American Standard Bible

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [a]it would be evident that they all are not of us.

Stop that. You can’t blame someone when they’ve never been taught who the Creator really is. Just god is most likely all he’s ever heard. Fear of accidentally saying the special word “god” in an off-putting way. Saying “god” followed by “damn” isn’t the sin many believe it to be.


I’d rather you’d have posted this instead:
Romans 10:14-15
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! …

The charge is laid on the church not this man.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by DougE:
You never believed in the first place.

1 John 2:19
New American Standard Bible

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [a]it would be evident that they all are not of us.

Stop that. You can’t blame someone when they’ve never been taught who the Creator really is. Just god is most likely all he’s ever heard. Fear of accidentally saying the special word “god” in an off-putting way. Saying “god” followed by “damn” isn’t the sin many believe it to be.


I’d rather you’d have posted this instead:
Romans 10:14-15
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! …

The charge is laid on the church not this man.

because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.