quote:

Originally posted by mojojojo:
Like Para, I don't pretend to fully understand what this "war" is about. While it seems easy to think it's a large country picking on a smaller country, I'd be surprised if Ukrainian hands were clean in all this.

Why so cynical?

Russian/Putin wants the Soviet Union back, and at least wants a buffer between it and Western Europe. It doesn't want to have NATO on all of its western border, and Ukraine fits the bill. This is pretty standard Russian imperialism or expansionism. Russia has had a chip on its shoulder vis a vis the West for centuries and has very often tried to make itself a world power and to expand its influence. Part of this is the inferiority complex and part of this is the desire for security and distance from what it sees as its enemies. We are protected by oceans - Russian is surrounded by countries it fears are its enemies or who are its enemies. Having Poland (not possible), Ukraine. or other countries as buffers would make Russian feel much safer.

What "dirty hands" would Ukraine have? They don't want to be part of Russia. They have made noises about joining NATO. They are a sovereign nation and are entitled to that.

I don't think we should go to war over this, not by a long shot, but Ukraine was minding its own business on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Southern Rebel:
If Russia can survive all of the economic sanctions, I believe their end game will be to utterly destroy all of the infrastructure of Ukraine in areas that they don't absorb into Russia. They will do this at a distance rather than endure further casualties.

From the news, it seems impossible to leave missiles (and production, and shipment) out of the equation. That includes long-distance targeted missiles like the ones the Russians used on the Lviv train station and the ones the Ukrainians used on the Moskva. Depending on the missiles, they could be air- or ground-launched, so the number of airframes each side has might not dictate what's possible. We and the rest of the West keep shipping Ukrainians missiles, and (from all appearances) Russians keep running lower and lower on components to make missiles more effective. Even if Russia survives (or evades) the sanctions it may not be able to flatten all of Ukraine from the air thoroughly enough or at a low enough cost to make the effort worthwhile.

Another thing to consider is that there have been pretty effective attacks on the railway system in Belarus, oil storage and fuel processing plants in Russia and at least one airplane repair/modification plant in Russia. There are various stories floating around about who's doing these things and why, but the supply and communications networks that Russians need to deploy drones, jets and missiles are clearly vulnerable. I'm enough of a blue-sky optimist to wonder whether that means that air bases in Russia can be hit as well, but that's bound to be an entirely different proposition at best.

If everybody is sooooo down with Ukraine ~ they why aren't they and by everyone - I mean everyone and all countries - do something and contribute?
I guess I understand not actually fighting the war although if everyone did then it would end very abruptly but there would be some casualties.
BUT NO ... WE the USA have to foot the whole damned thing practically.
Why not invest that $40M back home and at least try to slow down the economic suffering that is about to ramp up?
Simple solutions like this and closing the border and opening up the pipelines are so obvious that it hurts.

^^ For whatever my opinion's worth, I think that's a hangover from not having gotten the rest of NATO to invest its fair share in military preparedness. France and Germany got used to the idea that Uncle Sugar would handle everything they didn't, then the Cold War seemed to quiet down and the Euros got used to investing in their own economies. Oddly enough, it took Putin to do what Trump could not - get Germany to actually commit 2% of its own GDP to getting its military in shape.

The thing is, that means that the US has the biggest stockpiles of Javelins, of artillery and ammunition, etc., etc., etc., NATO. Ukraine doesn't need money as much as it needs 177 artillery and we happen to have a lot more of that on hand than anyone else. I'm sure they're getting money, but we're not sending them money so much as we're budgeting for the shipping, purchase, replacement and other costs involved in sending them weapons.

About the only good news is that some of that money (we can only hope it would be "all") is being or has been spent here in the US in the form of payments to US supply, manufacturing and shipping companies.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

- The argument that there are 30 million Americans out there without health insurance raises a couple of red flags. For the government to provide that with Biden squatting in the White House would require aggressive government efforts to expand the reach of ObamaCare, and I'd personally like to see that thing die a death. At the same time, considering that OCare exists, how is Americans being without health insurance supposed to be linked to government spending in Ukraine?

I have no idea how health insurance is linked to Ukraine, but I want to comment on the 30 million without insurance.

My wife and I are officially in that category because we do not have what is legally medical insurance. But we are in a cost-sharing group which effectively amounts to the same thing. We self-pay (and usually get a good discount from the provider who doesn't fill out any insurance paperwork), then we get reimbursed minus the deductible. From our perspective it is effectively the same as insurance.

It makes me very skeptical of any government claims about uninsured people until they get very specific about what they mean.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
Why so cynical?

Why so gullible?

The Biden Administration and our joke of a news media are telling us how things are in all of this. Cynicism is absolutely called for, and lots of it. I don't believe a single thing either of these entities tells me.

And you can just say goodbye to that 30 to 40 billion tax payer dollars, flushed straight down the toilet.

Oh, yes, so many things to be positive about. I'm positive the American public is being lied to, I'm positive the American taxpayer is getting screwed. I'm positive that all of this is a waste of time and money.

quote:

Why not invest that $40M $40B back home and at least try to slow down the economic suffering that is about to ramp up?

I had to look twice at the amount when I saw it earlier myself...

Yes, and that money is g-o-n-e, and the American taxpayer will never see any actual effect of it over there. We might as well have just piled bills in a field and had a bonfire.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Yes, and that money is g-o-n-e, and the American taxpayer will never see any actual effect of it over there. We might as well have just piled bills in a field and had a bonfire.

Makes the money Trump wanted for the border wall that they screeched about seem paltry in comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
And you can just say goodbye to that 30 to 40 billion tax payer dollars, flushed straight down the toilet.
****
Yes, and that money is g-o-n-e, and the American taxpayer will never see any actual effect of it over there. We might as well have just piled bills in a field and had a bonfire.

Actually, the bonfire or the toilet flush might be preferable. At least then it's gone.

The reality is that a large part of the $40 billion slush fund will come back to the Democratic coffers. You can bet that a huge portion of that will be siphoned off at every turn: palms will be greased, money kicked back, and all will know that it's the Democrats who must benefit. It's the Chicago way. Gone International.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
Biden Wanted $33B More For Ukraine. Congress Quickly Raised it to $40B. Who Benefits?

.....

https://greenwald.substack.com...more-for-ukraine?s=r

Want to.know how to royally fuck over Russia? Spend $40b $10b in tax breaks for barrels of oil produced in 2022-2023 from new wells, or resumption of projects. Next fast track permitting process and return to previous fees for leases or even better, lower them beyond what they were when Biden took office. Drill baby drill! With the recession coming in the coming months plus the promise of new additional American produced global oil supplies, oil could be below $50 a barrel by years end.

Bankrupt them while returning to energy dominance. At some point some of their wells will likely become unprofitable especially if they are selling it at a 30% discount to India and whatever deal China is raping them for. War is expensive, we can end it by increasing supply and crippling Russia's cash cow. They are funding their war with the $5+ gas you filled your car up with today, a double slap in the face.

Do it Biden! You can end the war and ease consumers pain at the pump, it would only take a few pen strokes and phone calls and you get to be the hero.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
^^ For whatever my opinion's worth, I think that's a hangover from not having gotten the rest of NATO to invest its fair share in military preparedness. France and Germany got used to the idea that Uncle Sugar would handle everything they didn't, then the Cold War seemed to quiet down and the Euros got used to investing in their own economies. Oddly enough, it took Putin to do what Trump could not - get Germany to actually commit 2% of its own GDP to getting its military in shape.


Yeah, a few years ago Merckal told Trump that Germany MIGHT get to 2% by 2030.
Maybe they are rethinking that now.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Want to know how to royally fuck over Russia? Spend $40b $10b in tax breaks for barrels of oil produced in 2022-2023 from new wells, or resumption of projects. Next fast track permitting process and return to previous fees for leases or even better, lower them beyond what they were when Biden took office. Drill baby drill! With the recession coming in the coming months plus the promise of new additional American produced global oil supplies, oil could be below $50 a barrel by years end.

Bankrupt them while returning to energy dominance. At some point some of their wells will likely become unprofitable especially if they are selling it at a 30% discount to India and whatever deal China is raping them for. War is expensive, we can end it by increasing supply and crippling Russia's cash cow. They are funding their war with the $5+ gas you filled your car up with today, a double slap in the face.

I think I like this plan.

If the idiot in the White House wasn't desperately throwing money at Ukraine in a pitiable attempt to distract from domestic suffering, Europe would be footing the entire bill...they have no choice and it's their ass on the line. Bizarre that the voters in this country appear unable to recognize obvious war propaganda and are all now vehement supporters of funneling dollars to an eastern European 'democracy'. It's really quite remarkable.

And that 40 Billion is suppose to last for only 5 months in Ukraine Biden stated. And General Milley has already stated this war will last for years.

The U.S. debt stands at 30.5 Trillion dollars as of today. How much more can we actually print without it all crashing down?
https://www.usdebtclock.org/ Our Debt to GDP ratio is now 129% and was 35% in 1980. At current spending levels we are projected to have a Dept to GDP ratio of 184% by 2026.

Milley: Ukraine war likely to last for years, only US troops could have stopped invasion

https://nypost.com/2022/04/05/...ped-us-general-says/

The top US military officer told lawmakers Tuesday that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine likely could not have been prevented except by the presence of US forces and warned that the conflict in Europe is likely to drag on for years to come.

The New Never Ending War. Remember the ever expanding Islamic Caliphate we were unable to stop or slow down? Same people in charge / Different theater of operation.

Ukraine isn't that big- How can destroying it take years? Unless actually winning isn't the goal.

I was curios-
So far, the Department of Defense has sent at least 7,000 FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missiles.

and

According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) The Military Balance, the Russians have 2,800 tanks and 13,000 other armored vehicles (reconnaissance and infantry fighting vehicles) in units with another 10,000 tanks and 8,500 armored vehicles in storage.

What they have and what they can field operationally are two different things.

Yes we could have given every American millions of dollars and still been way better off for it.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
Where is the 40 billion for Taiwan?


Maybe they didn’t pay their US delegated politicians as well as the Ukraine/Zelenskyy did?

We could split the 40 with Mexico and stanch the bleeding down south too.

quote:

According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) The Military Balance, the Russians have 2,800 tanks and 13,000 other armored vehicles (reconnaissance and infantry fighting vehicles) in units with another 10,000 tanks and 8,500 armored vehicles in storage.

A - Much of that is Soviet-era
B - Have you seen what a Russian vehicle looks like when it comes out of storage?
C - Is any of that better than the T-series tanks that seem to throw their turret in the air regularly?

quote:

Originally posted by tigereye313:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Yes, and that money is g-o-n-e, and the American taxpayer will never see any actual effect of it over there. We might as well have just piled bills in a field and had a bonfire.

Makes the money Trump wanted for the border wall that they screeched about seem paltry in comparison.

The FY 2022 President's Budget for DHS provides about $1.2B for border infrastructure which includes: modernization of Land Ports of Entry (LPOE); investments in modern border security technology and assets; and efforts to ensure the safe and humane treatment of migrants in Customs and Border Protection (CBP) custody.

Yep, US border security and that of the US is only worth a $1.4B commitment while illegals and narcotics flow totally unrestricted across our border. Additionally, this filth in Washington sent tens of millions in this aide package to house and provide healthcare to Ukrainians....while over a million Americans, many of them military vets, sleep on the streets and scavenge to survive.

Face it, these people in Washington 'hate' us. You can starve, pay insane costs for fuel and everything else draining everything you've put away, but fear not, the Ukrainians will be just fine due to the walking piles of human excrement in Washington masquerading as 'Americans' putting Ukrainian interests above those of the people of the US.