$29,000,000.
The lady's family should get 29 mil in wrongful death suit.

Oh brother. Using your logic, everything Baldwin did wrong could have been a non event if the armorer would have done their job. The big difference? It actually was her job. His job was to pretend he was an angry farmer in 1876. He kind of nailed his job. Her, not so much.

So the gun is said to have been used for target practice, off-set.

Was big movie man gunslinger a participant in any of this target practice. Or did mister hot head know of the gun being used for target practice?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I think that those who are making excuses for Baldwin aren’t going to change the minds of those who think that he is responsible. Nor the other way around.

Of all the excuses, of all the “well that’s a bad analogy” stuff, no one has yet to explain away why he was pointing a loaded handgun at someone who wasn’t even in the movie......

This isn’t about aiming a car at a camera man and having the brakes fail. This is aiming the car at the camera man, and driving wild and killing the caterer. And then a bunch of people blaming the mechanic and not the driver.

Like I said, no one is going to change any minds.

Personally, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just enjoying the conversation/discussion as we look at all the different aspects. In the end the only opinion(s) that matter are those of the investigators reviewing this shooting.

New details from the surviving victim...

"Joel Souza, the film director who was hit in the accidental shooting, gave investigators details as he was recovering at Christus St. Vincent Medical Center on Friday...

The shooting happened inside a set church at Bonanza Creek Ranch Thursday afternoon. Souza said the scene involved Baldwin sitting on a church pew and the pulling the prop gun across his body and pointing it directly at the camera. That's when the gun went off and both Hutchins and Souza were hit. He said at that point Hutchins grabbed her stomach and said she couldn't feel her legs...

Souza also shared what he knew about the handling of that prop gun right before the shooting. He said the crew members were prepping for the scene before lunch, took a break to eat, and returned. Souza couldn't confirm the prop guns were checked after that lunch break. He said three people handled those weapons – two of which are coming under more scrutiny."

________________________________

Meanwhile, there are also new allegations against “Rust" assistant director Dave Halls. The search warrant shows the day of the accidental shooting, Halls took one of three guns Reed prepared and yelled "cold gun."...

Now a new NBC News report includes allegations that Halls has a history of using unsafe practices on sets. A prop maker who worked with him in 2019 had her own thoughts about her experience on the set..."He did not maintain a safe working environment,” said Maggie Goll. "Sets were almost always allowed to become increasingly claustrophobic, no established fire lanes, exits blocked, safety meetings were nonexistent."

KOB 4 Eyewitness News

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Oh brother. Using your logic, everything Baldwin did wrong could have been a non event if the armorer would have done their job. The big difference? It actually was her job. His job was to pretend he was an angry farmer in 1876. He kind of nailed his job. Her, not so much.

A final time, so that I’m absolutely clear: the final responsibility for the shot fired rests on the shoulders of the guy who fired the shot. It’s that simple for me. All the mental gymnastics in the world don’t change a thing. He didn’t check the weapon, he shot and killed someone.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
He said the crew members were prepping for the scene before lunch, took a break to eat, and returned. Souza couldn't confirm the prop guns were checked after that lunch break.

This opens the door to two more questions. One, were the guns left accessible to everyone on the set during the break. If yes, that would seem a breach of custody of the guns. And two, were the guns checked after the break and prior to use, and if so, by who? And I'm sure a couple people are coming "under heightened scrutiny".

From this thread it's clear that law school brainwashes people.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
There’s another angle people are forgetting- Baldwin is the producer, or at least o e of the producers on this project. His operation had multiple people walk off the set, essentially quitting over what they described as serious safety issues. The fact that he, as the producer, did not take reported safety issues seriously makes him culpable at the end of the day. He owns this event, one way or another. The negligence was his and he should be held accountable for it.

I believe they walked off to dispute overtime and hotel accommodations, not safety issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
"We had two people accidentally shot on a movie set by a prop gun, we need help immediately," script supervisor Mamie Mitchell.."

See? The gun did it.

Meh, I’ll give her a pass. The woman probably doesn’t know how to communicate with dispatchers and also needed to make it clear doe the responders’ sake that it was an accidental shooting and not an active shooter event or similar, i.e. ambulance first, not cops. Her statement conveyed that necessary information.

One simple word change would have made her statement more accurate.

Use a different preposition.

Instead of "shot on a movie set by a prop gun," how about "shot on a movie set with a prop gun?"

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

Firearms should be loaded only when you are in the field or on the target range or shooting area

My carry gun is always loaded, whether on my belt or next to the bed. Full cylinder if it's a revolver, or full magazine plus one round in the chamber if it's a semi-automatic.

Same here. I copy/pasted from a firearms safety site. Perhaps "field" for us is where we carry.

Yeah, that works, with your modification, considering that many folks carry whenever they are awake, and sort of carry (on the nightstand) when they are sleeping.

Everyone is asking "how" and "why".

Let's take a huge step back and think about this.


Everyone on here is a "gun-guy/girl". (Duh...)
We know the rules, we've been dealing with guns for a long time, we also don't take "accidents" lightly. When an "accident" happens, we're on it like white on rice: "TREAT ALL GUNS AS IF THEY ARE LOADED! FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER!!!!!....."

That mantra is ingrained in our way of life.
There's more than enough here that carry guns all the time.

Now let's take a look at Alec.
He's a fucking pretender.
He pretends... All the time... For a living...
Like him or not, he's somewhat good at what he does. (Don't bullshit me, you liked "Hunt for Red October" too.)

Guess what else?
The rest of his ilk "pretend" for a living too. That's how they make a living. (On a side note- pretending you're a solider, cop, construction worker, teacher... makes more than an actual Solider, Cop, Construction Worker, Teacher! Chew on that for a while!)

They pretend so much, they actually thought they knew what they were doing. Pretending that things that matter, like "safety", were checked off. And now, because they have their heads so far up their asses, someone is injured, and someone is dead.

As for the "who"?
In my head, every single one of them, from the production crew, editors, to the key grip dude, all the way on down to the lackey who gets their cup of coffee.

Then again, I think a little different than most.

quote:

Originally posted by LoungeChair:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
There’s another angle people are forgetting- Baldwin is the producer, or at least o e of the producers on this project. His operation had multiple people walk off the set, essentially quitting over what they described as serious safety issues. The fact that he, as the producer, did not take reported safety issues seriously makes him culpable at the end of the day. He owns this event, one way or another. The negligence was his and he should be held accountable for it.

I believe they walked off to dispute overtime and hotel accommodations, not safety issues.

I misread the article; but right after the part where they walked off set for work related conditions, this was mentioned so it kind of ran together:

“An unnamed “knowledgeable person” said that there had been three prop gun mishaps before the fatal shooting – two on Saturday and one last week, telling the Times, “there was a serious lack of safety meetings on this set.”

https://www.news10.com/top-sto...ing-report-says/amp/

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
"We had two people accidentally shot on a movie set by a prop gun, we need help immediately," script supervisor Mamie Mitchell.."

See? The gun did it.

Meh, I’ll give her a pass. The woman probably doesn’t know how to communicate with dispatchers and also needed to make it clear doe the responders’ sake that it was an accidental shooting and not an active shooter event or similar, i.e. ambulance first, not cops. Her statement conveyed that necessary information.

One simple word change would have made her statement more accurate.

Use a different preposition.

Instead of "shot on a movie set by a prop gun," how about "shot on a movie set with a prop gun?"

Use a different object of the preposition: “shot on a movie set by Alec Baldwin”. Those trying to absolve Alec Baldwin of any responsibility, might as well just blame the gun. We aren't discussing any other actor, we are are discussing Alec Baldwin, Mr. guns are dangerous and nobody should have them, himself. Except, he gives himself a pass on his views of guns because he's an actor and makes money off of them.

He apparently gets a pass from some members here because he's an actor and as such not familiar with basic firearms safety. Given his very outspoken views on firearms, I don't see how being an actor excuses him from knowing how to handle firearms in a safe manner. Based on his opinions, I would hold him to a higher standard. Anyone as vocal as he is that still has to use firearms to make a living would naturally seek out firearms handling safety training. He doesn't get a pass from me.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
From this thread it's clear that law school brainwashes people.

Amen. I'm hearing lots of management-type catch-phrases. Just like my sister uses.

Time for Killer-B to retire, face a civil suit. Dave Halls, he'll be crucified by the time this is done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

Somewhere in this thread is a statement from Baldwin about being experienced with motorcycles, guns, etc.

^^^^He is a professional liar for a living. He sells the mystique. Do you really think he would tell you he likes long bubble baths and mani pedis while trying to sell you a film idea? I take nothing and I mean nothing he says as anything more than verbal diarrhea.

Funny thing is that everyone is reading this thread differently. My read is that lots of you are placing the blame if not squarely then mostly on the actors shoulders. Rarely if at all is the head armorer or the asst director mentioned at all. These two people are specifically tasked with handing the guns, prop or otherwise, to the actors at appropriate times during scenes.

This thread reads like a hatefest to Baldwin which he has earned through the years. Yet that isn’t the issue here. I have read numerous times how you never pint a gun at someone, the 4 safety rules, check the gun yourself, trigger discipline, etc, when we have all watched movies and television our entire lives and know that all of the above occurs all the time. Actors point guns at cameras and other actors all the time. We could literally pull thousands of times we’ve seen this. The 4 rules are completely suspended on movie sets by actors because they are “acting” like they are shooting someone.

I don’t believe anyone is absolving Baldwin. Most I figure is that I don’t believe any criminal charges will stick to him and I believe that is correct. Civilly he is doomed. That is also correct.

Actors act. They pretend for a living. They point guns at each other. All the time. Camera angles and mirrors and r3motes only go so far. If the director wants a shot of actor A pointing down the barrel at Actor B and pulling the trigger that is exactly the shot he will get. Those are the rules. Perhaps after this the rules will change. Maybe permanently maybe not so permanently.

It just seems silly to me to have a head armorer handing out real and fake guns whose sole purpose is to ensure safety but then blame the actor when it goes awry. You literally only have this position because actors and crew don’t know dick about guns.

Baldwin never thought he was going to shoot anyone. He was acting. He expected, like a thousand times before, that the expert had done their job and it was tone to do his. It’s a movie set for goodness sake. They do all kinds of things you shouldn’t do. Including playing with guns. Literally playing cowboys and indians. Pointing guns and shooting at each other dozens of times a day. It is why they have specific people whose only job is to make sure gun accidents don’t happen. As producer he bears some blame. On that list there were like a dozen producers so it is a shred blame. As the actor who pointed the gun and fired he shares the blame. Criminal act though? Nonsense.

I am enjoying this discussion. My wife feels as many of you do. Baldwin is guilty of murder etc. I’m truly trying to understand this POV.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
^^^
Same as V-Tail.



I live alone. No one has access to my firearms.

Therefore, they are under my control.

Several of my firearms are loaded, and some require charging, others do not (SIG DA/SA, revolvers).

I do not needlessly "manipulate" my firearms. I not drop mags and clear them. I do not "press check". They are tools, and like a hammer, I know if I pick it up and swing, it is gonna hurt what it hits.


Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Baldwin killed someone.

As for the "100%" blame being divvied up among several, in the USAF, (yeah, gonna irritate someone bringing that shit up again...) if someone failed to properly perform maintenance and an aircraft has a problem and the aircrew also fail in their applying proper procedures and other people get hurt, both the maintanance person and the aircrew can both be 100% accountable.

Because, each is accountable for their part, and if their part is 100% failure, then each is accountable to that 100% of the things under their control and to that which they are responsible.

To think that each only be accountable for a portion of a single 100% of the whole, is failure to understand what a responsibility and accountability actually is.

So, the set amrorer can be 100% accountable for their part. The actor, the director, the producor and so many others can all be 100% accountable and blamed for each of their failures or actions, decisions, etc.

But, the whole of it lies on Baldwin for not treating a firearm (especially in light of the facts that this specific firearm) was known to be a fully functioning firearm and therefore, ALL handling must be done by anyone in contact with that firearm to the same degree of responsible and chargeable actions as any other person handling any other firearm.

I was handed firearms prior to missions (the old S&W Model 15 "John Wayne") by armorers, and I was very well aware that once I took possession, I was 100% responsible. There was no provision for "sharing" anything that happened with it in my possession, with said, armorer.

All on me, and you can better believe that I still feel the same way about it +40 years later.

Accepted and carried that responsibility all on me.

This is what I was trying to get at last night.

Baldwin is 100% at fault. My question is who, else down the line was on the scene, set, and also at 100% at fault. There are enough questions for me to wonder if Mrs. Reed was on set prior to Baldwin being handed the firearm. IF she was, then she's 100% at fault just like the assistant director.

Armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed

quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:
Baldwin is 100% at fault. My question is who, else down the line was on the scene, set, and also at 100% at fault. There are enough questions for me to wonder if Mrs. Reed was on set prior to Baldwin being handed the firearm. IF she was, then she's 100% at fault just like the assistant director.

That’s not how percentages work. I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say, here.