quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Not a good analogy. Better would be if Baldwin was driving a car when the brakes failed and someone was killed.

Nonsense. Gun is designed to go boom. It did. Nothing failed. Operator error.

That is not correct. Movie set gun is designed to make noise, not to shoot a projectile.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

Firearms should be loaded only when you are in the field or on the target range or shooting area

My carry gun is always loaded, whether on my belt or next to the bed. Full cylinder if it's a revolver, or full magazine plus one round in the chamber if it's a semi-automatic.

Yep. I have a Glock 43X sitting on the counter right now that's been loaded for several months (since the last time I took it to the range) given it goes in my waistband daily.

There’s another angle people are forgetting- Baldwin is the producer, or at least o e of the producers on this project. His operation had multiple people walk off the set, essentially quitting over what they described as serious safety issues. The fact that he, as the producer, did not take reported safety issues seriously makes him culpable at the end of the day. He owns this event, one way or another. The negligence was his and he should be held accountable for it.

quote:

Originally posted by honestlou:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Not a good analogy. Better would be if Baldwin was driving a car when the brakes failed and someone was killed.

Nonsense. Gun is designed to go boom. It did. Nothing failed. Operator error.

That is not correct. Movie set gun is designed to make noise, not to shoot a projectile.

Well, sure, if we’re talking about a blank firing weapon. But evidently we aren’t. Live gun loaded with live round did what live gun was designed to do. This is not a mechanical failure.

^^^
Same as V-Tail.



I live alone. No one has access to my firearms.

Therefore, they are under my control.

Several of my firearms are loaded, and some require charging, others do not (SIG DA/SA, revolvers).

I do not needlessly "manipulate" my firearms. I not drop mags and clear them. I do not "press check". They are tools, and like a hammer, I know if I pick it up and swing, it is gonna hurt what it hits.


Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Baldwin killed someone.

As for the "100%" blame being divvied up among several, in the USAF, (yeah, gonna irritate someone bringing that shit up again...) if someone failed to properly perform maintenance and an aircraft has a problem and the aircrew also fail in their applying proper procedures and other people get hurt, both the maintanance person and the aircrew can both be 100% accountable.

Because, each is accountable for their part, and if their part is 100% failure, then each is accountable to that 100% of the things under their control and to that which they are responsible.

To think that each only be accountable for a portion of a single 100% of the whole, is failure to understand what a responsibility and accountability actually is.

So, the set amrorer can be 100% accountable for their part. The actor, the director, the producor and so many others can all be 100% accountable and blamed for each of their failures or actions, decisions, etc.

But, the whole of it lies on Baldwin for not treating a firearm (especially in light of the facts that this specific firearm) was known to be a fully functioning firearm and therefore, ALL handling must be done by anyone in contact with that firearm to the same degree of responsible and chargeable actions as any other person handling any other firearm.

I was handed firearms prior to missions (the old S&W Model 15 "John Wayne") by armorers, and I was very well aware that once I took possession, I was 100% responsible. There was no provision for "sharing" anything that happened with it in my possession, with said, armorer.

All on me, and you can better believe that I still feel the same way about it +40 years later.

Accepted and carried that responsibility all on me.

I realize that movies are make believe, it is all supposed to be fake. However when someone really ends up dead, the make believe stops. That is real. Just because it happened on a movie set doesn't make it ok, excusable, or even above the law in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
I realize that movies are make believe, it is all supposed to be fake. However when someone really ends up dead, the make believe stops. That is real. Just because it happened on a movie set doesn't make it ok, excusable, or even above the law in my opinion.

I haven't seen anybody say it's ok or acceptable . But it is NOT your local shooting range and responsibility for a loaded/unloaded weapon does not fall on the operator . That is why they hire armorers in the first place .

Real guns get real gun treatment. Period.

There was a lot of failure to go around but the buck stops with the person pulling the trigger. Actions have consequences and Mr. Baldwin learned a hard lesson while someone else paid the price.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Not a good analogy. Better would be if Baldwin was driving a car when the brakes failed and someone was killed.

Nonsense. Gun is designed to go boom. It did. Nothing failed. Operator error.

Car example is a bad analogy.

Look at it like this.

Supposed an actor is to drive a vehicle directly at the camera and camera man. (Like pointing a gun at someone.)

The vehicle is supposed to be set up expressly for this purpose such that the vehicle is prevented from actually hitting the camera and camera operator. In this case, the vehicle is supposed to be attached to an arresting wire that will safely stop the car 12 inches from the camera. (Like the gun was supposed to be made safe/cold whatever)

The Actor gets in the car and does exactly as directed and rehearsed. The car was never made safe, and tragically, the camera operator is struck by the vehicle and is killed. (Like Alec pointing and pulling the trigger)

Who is at fault? The Actor who depressed the gas pedal on a real car with it pointed at a person? Or the special effects master who is literally hired expressly to create this stunt safely?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
"We had two people accidentally shot on a movie set by a prop gun, we need help immediately," script supervisor Mamie Mitchell.."

See? The gun did it.

Meh, I’ll give her a pass. The woman probably doesn’t know how to communicate with dispatchers and also needed to make it clear doe the responders’ sake that it was an accidental shooting and not an active shooter event or similar, i.e. ambulance first, not cops. Her statement conveyed that necessary information.

I think that those who are making excuses for Baldwin aren’t going to change the minds of those who think that he is responsible. Nor the other way around.

Of all the excuses, of all the “well that’s a bad analogy” stuff, no one has yet to explain away why he was pointing a loaded handgun at someone who wasn’t even in the movie......

This isn’t about aiming a car at a camera man and having the brakes fail. This is aiming the car at the camera man, and driving wild and killing the caterer. And then a bunch of people blaming the mechanic and not the driver.

Like I said, no one is going to change any minds.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Look at it like this.

Supposed an actor is to drive a vehicle directly at the camera and camera man. (Like pointing a gun at someone.)

The vehicle is supposed to be set up expressly for this purpose such that the vehicle is prevented from actually hitting the camera and camera operator. In this case, the vehicle is supposed to be attached to an arresting wire that will safely stop the car 12 inches from the camera. (Like the gun was supposed to be made safe/cold whatever)

The Actor gets in the car and does exactly as directed and rehearsed. The car was never made safe, and tragically, the camera operator is struck by the vehicle and is killed. (Like Alec pointing and pulling the trigger)

Who is at fault? The Actor who depressed the gas pedal on a real car with it pointed at a person? Or the special effects master who is literally hired expressly to create this stunt safely?

It's unbelievable that some people on this forum can't even grasp this concept.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

Firearms should be loaded only when you are in the field or on the target range or shooting area

My carry gun is always loaded, whether on my belt or next to the bed. Full cylinder if it's a revolver, or full magazine plus one round in the chamber if it's a semi-automatic.

Same here. I copy/pasted from a firearms safety site. Perhaps "field" for us is where we carry.

I’m not a fan of Baldwin, I think he’s a loudmouth bully who is filled with anger. People on here are saying he’s at fault for not checking the gun, I guarantee you he does not know the first thing about firearms or the proper way to handle a firearm. That’s why they have “experts” on hand who are supposed to ensure the firearm is safe when it’s handed to the actor. If he was given a firearm and was told it was safe, he is not going to check it and neither would any other actor unless they knew something about the safe and proper handling of a firearm. I can’t believe they have a twenty four year old female doing that job in the first place. You would think they would want a retired cop or military guy who spent many years as a firearms instructor/trainer.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
"We had two people accidentally shot on a movie set by a prop gun, we need help immediately," script supervisor Mamie Mitchell.."

See? The gun did it.

I'm trying to keep out of this, but let's be fair here. If someone had been struck by an axe or run over by a car, it wouldn't be inappropriate to say so. It wouldn't be that they were trying to blame the axe or the car, but trying to convey vital information about the nature of the incident. It might affect the nature of the EMS response if EMS is made aware of what they are facing.

Perhaps I'm off base here, but I doubt that the person calling it in was taking the opportunity to make a political statement against firearms.

I think it’s safe to say nobody is defending that asshat Baldwin. They are pointing out that applying gun safety rules that we all know and live by using guns as guns to actors on a movie set playing pretend is disingenuous. Also acting like pointing a gun at people on camera is unheard of is also disingenuous. As is being surprised that pointing a gun at a camera that the cinematographer is standing behind and being surprised by that, you guessed it disingenuous. It also seems crazy that at any point an actor can be handed a real gun with blanks or a prop gun that is modified to function only using blanks or an inoperative gun that doesn’t have any function at all but to look real. Real guns don’t belong on sets. Telling actors to treat them all with the same caution is laudable but kind of ridiculous in real life. If you take a noob to the range you literally stand directly behind them until you are comfortable that they “get” it and you deem them safe. They aren’t doing this with actors for the most part. They make the gun safe, hand it to them under very controlled sequences and then take it back till it’s needed again. It isn’t a gun range.

They hire firearms experts to arm/disarm weapons on set. They serve one purpose and one purpose only. The safety of everyone involved because the people handling the actual guns are presumed (usually accurately) as knowing nothing about the safe loading, unloading, use of, or even basic safety rules of firearms handling.

You guys are applying the same mentality of use as an RSO would. Commendable again perhaps, except that this RSO is conducting a match with dozens of people who’ve never handled a firearm, have no interest in becoming proficient, and you are at the bottom of the food chain in authority. You have to RSO a match where most of the participants have the power to get you fired or replaced. Not an enviable position.

Dozens if not hundreds of crew would be dead over the years if a loaded round was put into a “prop” gun and handed to an actor and you yelled ACTION. I guarantee some of the sloppiest and scariest gun handling you have ever seen has occurred on movie sets. Only because of quality competent film crews (armorers) has disaster been averted so many times in the past. This was a case of amazingly sloppy work by the persons whose only task was to prevent such things yet having the working knowledge of firearms equivalent to that of a child. Read her quote about not knowing what blanks look like. Don’t be surprised when the investigation finds she loaded the killing round herself.

quote:

Who is at fault? The Actor who depressed the gas pedal on a real car with it pointed at a person? Or the special effects master who is literally hired expressly to create this stunt safely?

Both of them.

Clearly intent (or lack thereof) plays a role, but are actors in some sort of special category that places them above the rules that others must live under?

Take your same "stunt" mentioned above and apply it to high school kids horsing around instead of actors. You think in that same scenario that the kid driving the car bears no responsibility while his buddy that was supposed to have set the kill switch up catches all of the blame?

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
The ONLY grief this piece of shit feels is the embarrassment of being criticized by the right.

He doesn't care he killed some lesser person than him. She was just some expendable employee to him. Camera people are a dime a dozen.

He's worried about his image. From the sheer violence from his tweets and that phone call to his daughter, he absolutely has no remorse.

Financially, this will affect him zero as the insurances that will be forced to pay out.

I'll take vacuum cleaner hose to the driver's window, Alex.

I believe this too. He will put on a show but in the privacy of his home he’s just pissed and worried about how this will affect his future.

Oh his future is good and truly fucked.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I think that those who are making excuses for Baldwin aren’t going to change the minds of those who think that he is responsible. Nor the other way around.

Agreed. For me, everything the armorer got wrong could have been a non-event if Baldwin had checked the weapon. He didn’t check the weapon and he put a live round through two people, killing one. There. Short sentence containing irrefutable facts.

With that, I’m out.