quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:

Alex supposedly says "if you make me do this one more time, why don't I shoot you?"

Alex shoots two people with one bullet.

I hadn't heard about that part. Yikes.

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
He pointed the gun, he pulled the trigger, she died.

100% on him.

From his violent, threatening tweets, it's malice murder to me.

I agree with this. Once the gun was in Baldwin's hand, he was responsible with anything to do with it, period! It was a negligent homicide pure and simple.

Jim

Let’s put this in practical terms. During my Naval Academy days I attended an explosives demo at Quantico. We shot stuff, fired M203 grenades, etc. The “finale” was a vehicle rigged up to explode and the instructor picked one of us to take the wired detonator and blow it up. We all wanted to do it. Not one of us checked the wiring. Nobody questioned if it was a safe amount of explosive. We didn’t check for anyone down range. We literally took the word of the explosives expert and the lucky guy blew that vehicle to shit. It was awesome. When you are out of your field and don’t know shit you tend to trust the experts that tell you it’s safe to blow up a truck. Or shoot a prop gun. Because that is exactly what your average actor thinks it is. A prop.

We all shoot guns on a pretty serious level. In the crowd we are discussing we literally would be SME’s on that set. Each of us is probably more qualified to be the head armorer than she was.

They should have known better. They didn’t and someone died. He isn’t going to be convicted of murder or even manslaughter and it’s not because he’s famous. He isn’t because there isn’t a great case there. Complacency and stupidity are a dangerous combo. Everyone on that set should have walked out after the first 2 ND’s.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Can’t believe that I’m reading, on a gun forum, that Baldwin isn’t solely at fault.

The train of thought that he is a victim seems to fall hand in hand on how we get gun control pushed on us. You know, guns are so dangerous that it killed a woman and Baldwin isn’t even at fault.......

I’m not disagreeing. Baldwin is 100% at fault. If I were on the jury, he’s the one who pulled the trigger and the buck stops with him.

But most of us gun folks can’t wrap around how he took possession of a firearm with out ensuring it was empty or loaded….most people are forgetting they( non gun people)just don’t have the knowledge that we gun guys do. Nor do they follow safety rules…which you can see in the behavior of the movie…they shitcanned the regular union people and began cutting corners to save money.

quote:

Originally posted by DSgrouse:
Where I have a bit of concern is here:

If Mrs. Reed arrived on set after Baldwin had started rehearsing with the gun. Then, I don't see how blame can be directly put on her.

You're kidding, right? When I run a million dollar financial system conversion over a three day weekend and into the following week, I'm onsite the entire time work is being done to deal with issues as they arise. All of it is ultimately my responsibility, and the customer would crucify me (and rightfully so) if I opted to be elsewhere and unavailable when issues arose. If filming or practicing was occurring, Reed should have damn well made it a point to be there. That's her job.

quote:

If she handed the gun to the assistant director saying it was a cold weapon, when she had enough time to properly check, weapons and ammo lockers. Then yes, there can be some blame on her.

Correct.

quote:

If she was in charge the whole time, then yes, there was a major fuck up.

As the movie armorer, it 'is' her job to be in charge the whole time. Again, if the story holds up, she totally dropped the ball.

quote:

Now if she arrived after Baldwin started rehearsing with the gun....

See my initial comment.

Yeah, but, if Baldwin ran over two people on the set with a car because he was driving negligently, we wouldn’t be blaming the mechanic because “Baldwin didn’t check the brakes”. We certainly wouldn’t be blaming the car.

He’s a grown man of an average (supposedly) IQ. We don’t point guns at people without checking them first. It isn’t rocket science that takes an advanced degree in under water basket weaving. He has spent his entire adult life playing dress up. He knew better. He fucked up and a woman is dead. Just own it already.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
He got fucked by the armorer and the assistant director. Two people whose sole job was to ensure the gun was safe.

Nope. Its not the Asst Director's job to insure anything having to do with the guns used on set, and if proper procedures were in place and followed, the Asst Director would likely not be permitted to handle the movie guns at all. That responsibility rests solely with the armorer, hence the reason that person is hired in the first place.

Here in Canada there are rules against pointing guns directly at people while filming. This being one of the protocols introduced after a fatal accident while filming. I find it hard to believe there are not similar rules in place in the US. So the armorer should have been on top of this as should the producers as should the actors.

Seems to me that one could just use a cheap mirror to make it look like the gun is pointing at the camera. Screw it up, and the only loss is only about $10. But I'm just a hillbilly in the Ozarks, what do I know?

I’m with Jones on this one. Baldwin pulled the trigger, bottom line.

If we are indeed discussing a single action revolver, at the point the hammer is cocked, and with the apparent history of misfires on set (seer malfunction, hammer push, age and wear from after hours firing with live ammo and not clean?), there is very little forgiveness for putting a finger on the trigger. "Cold" weapon might mean uncocked?, who knows, but Alec and the prop master/armorer should be buddy buddy with such an important chain of custody. Multiple factors may have coalesced into a perfect storm and a live round (don't know that a blank and a failed adapter would have enough energy to go through a wall and torso and into a shoulder). 44LC maybe. Sabotage? Maybe, but that's the reason for the firearm safety rules, Even in make- believe land.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Yeah, but, if Baldwin ran over two people on the set with a car because he was driving negligently, we wouldn’t be blaming the mechanic because “Baldwin didn’t check the brakes”. We certainly wouldn’t be blaming the car.

He’s a grown man of an average (supposedly) IQ. We don’t point guns at people without checking them first. It isn’t rocket science that takes an advanced degree in under water basket weaving. He has spent his entire adult life playing dress up. He knew better. He fucked up and a woman is dead. Just own it already.

^^^TRUTH.

1) Always Keep Firearm Pointed in a Safe direction

Never point your gun at anything you do not intend to shoot. This is particularly important when loading or unloading a firearm. In the event of an accidental discharge, no injury can occur as long as the muzzle is pointing in a safe direction.

A safe direction means a direction in which a bullet cannot possibly strike anyone, taking into account possible ricochets and the fact that bullets can penetrate walls and ceilings. The safe direction may be “up” on some occasions or “down” on others, but never at anything not intended as a target. Even when “dry firing” with an unloaded gun, you should never point the gun at an unsafe target.

Make it a habit to know exactly where the muzzle of your gun is pointing at all times, and be sure that you are in control of the direction the muzzle is pointing, even if you fall or stumble. This is your responsibility, and only you can control it.
2) Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded

By treating every firearm as if it is loaded, a habit of safety is developed. Firearms should be loaded only when you are in the field or on the target range or shooting area, ready to shoot. Whenever you handle a firearm, or hand it to someone, always open the action immediately, and visually check the chamber, receiver and magazine to be certain they do not contain any ammunition. Always keep actions open when not in use. Never assume a gun is unloaded — check for yourself! This is considered a mark of an experienced gun handler!
3) Keep Your Finger Off the Trigger until You are Ready to Shoot

Never touch the trigger on a firearm until you actually intend to shoot. Keep your fingers away from the trigger while loading or unloading. Never pull the trigger on any firearm with the safety on the “safe” position or anywhere in between “safe” and “fire.” It is possible that the gun can fire at any time, or even later when you release the safety, without you ever touching the trigger again.
4) Always Be Sure of Your Target and What’s Beyond It

Don’t shoot unless you know exactly what your shot is going to strike. Be sure that your bullet will not injure anyone or anything beyond your target.

Be aware that even a .22 short bullet can travel over 1 1/4 miles and a high velocity cartridge, such as a .30-06, can send its bullet more than three miles. Shotgun pellets can travel 500 yards, and shotgun slugs have a range of over half a mile.

You should keep in mind how far a bullet will travel if it misses your intended target or ricochets in another direction.

Now class, how many of the primary rules of gun safety did little Alec violate?

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
But most of us gun folks can’t wrap around how he took possession of a firearm with out ensuring it was empty or loaded....

Likely most if not all of us have watched the John Wick movies. It would be interesting to know, given the volume of firearms used throughout that movie, just how many of the actors safety checked their guns as they were given to them. Many of us have also watched YouTube videos of Keanu Reeves training with Taran Butler, so we know how adept he is with firearms. Did Keanu safety check every Glock, AR, and shotgun handed to him at the beginning of filming a scene? My bet would be the actors likely trust the armorer(s) to insure the guns on set are properly prepped and ready for them to use. I'm not suggesting its right, I'm simply suggesting its likely the way the sets operate.

The "armorer" here is a 24 year old dilettante. She was thrown into this position it sounds like because the head armorer was thrown out. This woman didn't have the experience or fortitude I believe to admit that she was in way over her head.

Who the hell put her in charge in the first place? Was it just because there was no one else that would or could do it? That person deserves to eat a shit sandwich too.

It just sounds like there was a cascade of errors here, and when the head armorer was finally off the set, an accident was inevitable at that point. Now throw in an arrogant, hot-headed, gun-clueless actor and you have what we have here.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Yeah, but, if Baldwin ran over two people on the set with a car because he was driving negligently, we wouldn’t be blaming the mechanic because “Baldwin didn’t check the brakes”. We certainly wouldn’t be blaming the car.

Since this is a period piece of the Old West, I doubt a car would enter the equation, but I get the point you're trying to make. Can I add an additional layer to your example? What if Baldwin were given a car for a chase scene, got overly aggressive with it, the brakes failed because no one checked or maintained them, and he hit and killed a crew member. Still solely his fault, or would the person paid to manage and maintain the vehicles for the movie own a piece of it?

Again, and just for clarification, I loathe Baldwin every bit as much as everyone else here. I just think we might all be jumping the gun before all the facts are in. I for one would really like to know for sure what did or didn't happen with the armorer.

Same same.

It’s his fault. The fact that he is negligent carries whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Yeah, but, if Baldwin ran over two people on the set with a car because he was driving negligently, we wouldn’t be blaming the mechanic because “Baldwin didn’t check the brakes”. We certainly wouldn’t be blaming the car.
…

Not a good analogy. Better would be if Baldwin was driving a car when the brakes failed and someone was killed.

Of course if you assume he acted negligently then he is to blame. The question is whether or not he was negligent. And that question very simply depends on whether or not the normal rules of gun safety apply to prop guns on a movie set. I don’t know the answer to that, but it is not obvious.

quote:

Not a good analogy. Better would be if Baldwin was driving a car when the brakes failed and someone was killed.

Nonsense. Gun is designed to go boom. It did. Nothing failed. Operator error.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

Firearms should be loaded only when you are in the field or on the target range or shooting area

My carry gun is always loaded, whether on my belt or next to the bed. Full cylinder if it's a revolver, or full magazine plus one round in the chamber if it's a semi-automatic.