The way this was handled was WRONG. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
So now, noncompliance with flight crew instructions will become an art form, a new litigation lottery ticket to fame and fortune.

We all have a certain amount of "You can't make me" in our DNA. We're Americans. Now it pays to be a defiant jerk.

These damned cameras in everybodies hand and instant upload is changing the culture in important, and not always beneficial, ways.

Those cameras will now become an even bigger part of our discussions and training at the airline. Social media outrage will become even more of a factor in our decision matrix. I'll be with erj-pilot in StarBucks waiting out the next passenger issue.

I predict an increase in bad behavior on airplanes as a result of this event.

So, in your world, anyone who does not simply kowtow to "orders" from some self-perceived mafia Don should be beat senseless, thrown off the plane because of the "perceived" bad behavior. Where does that end? Is it limited to air lines, or does it apply to other forms of public transportation?

You keep defending the actions of the people who beat hell out of a passenger who had paid for his seat, was legally seated and would not voluntarily give up his seat.

The CEO of UAL has STATED IN PUBLIC that the guy did nothing wrong, that the decision makers at UAL were WRONG.

As an airline pilot you may feel you have total dictatorial powers on board the aircraft. Having said that, just where does that "authority" end?

Defend the flight crew all you want, they were not, as I understand it, part of the issue in the first place, and the doors of the aircraft had not been closed, nor engines started. Which, to my understanding, says the plane crew had damned little to say in that situation.

To reiterate! The corporate CEO has admitted PUBLICLY that the decision makers in this MCF were wrong, the PASSENGER DID NOTHING WRONG!

{tap tap}

Is this thing on?

"Take a break" does not mean "put up a bunch of new posts"

[/quote]

quote:

If law enforcement was called in, and handled it like this, why would it be the fault or responsibility of the business on whose premises it occurred?

Who called law enforcement? UAL!

They created this mess. They oversold the flight. Then after a paying passenger was seated on the plane, they decided that the passenger in question was to be manhandled off the plane.

As I understand it, when they overbook a flight they actually sell more seats than they have available. So passengers show up at the counter and are told, "Sorry, but we have no seats available." After that passenger has a confirmed reservation on that specific flight?

Is that how it works? Passenger denied the seat, for which he already paid, for convenience of the airline?

Airlines in this country have forgotten about customers and customer service.

I have to fly on UAL next Wed, so I think I will go start practicing sitting cross legged on a small cushion.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
If the passenger had not been asked to leave the aircraft by an airline employee, there would be no compliance issue regarding the airline.

Thanks for giving me all the evidence I needed to rule against UAL in my opinion. There was no issue before they (UAL) made it an issue. This guy wins in my court all day long!

quote:

Originally posted by Elk Hunter:



To reiterate! The corporate CEO has admitted PUBLICLY that the decision makers in this MCF were wrong, the PASSENGER DID NOTHING WRONG!

When a pilot's wife offered an explanation, her view was dismissed because she wasn't there and didn't know what happened. The CEO wasn't there, was he.

The confusion appears to be whether this doctor was innocently beaten and dragged, or was defying law enforcement. It appears that United really had nothing to do with it.

It looks like the PR guys got to him before the investigation was completed.

If it was THAT bloody important to get the crew members wherever the fuck they were going, United should have offered four first-class unrestricted Around the World tickets to the first four people to make it back up the jetway to the waiting area.

Mind you, today we would be reading about one hundred forty-seven people trampled to death on a United Airlines flight....

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by Elk Hunter:



To reiterate! The corporate CEO has admitted PUBLICLY that the decision makers in this MCF were wrong, the PASSENGER DID NOTHING WRONG!

When a pilot's wife offered an explanation, her view was dismissed because she wasn't there and didn't know what happened. The CEO wasn't there, was he.

The confusion appears to be whether this doctor was innocently beaten and dragged, or was defying law enforcement. It appears that United really had nothing to do with it.

It looks like the PR guys got to him before the investigation was completed.

JAllen, the difference between the pilot's wife and the CEO is that the CEO has ordered an investigation. He now has access and/or is gaining access to crew member accounts, other passenger accounts, videos not published on social media, info from Chicago Aviation security's in progress investigation, etc. His attitude changing is likely a combination of pr advice and knowing more now than he did at his first statement.

The airline pilot's wife (btw, not the wife of the pilot of the flight in question) does not. She only has the same access we do.

The crutch of the contract of carriage, doesn't negate that United screwed up, in an escalating fashion. The fine print is a refuge that allows United to say we're in the clear when we don't fulfill the implied contract to get the passenger to their destination as previously agreed upon.

It's because the next group of passengers are more important than you, because we're a big stinking corporation that cares less about you now that we've gotten your money, and you spent several hours in semi-captivity waiting for the airline to abuse us a little more.

I haven't flown much since the late 90's, and I started flying for work in the early 80's, at the end of regulation, going into the era of deregulation. So what if flying is no longer an "occasion", but a commodity. The basics of treating your customer should and can be paramount and some airlines have figured that out......

Did other "news" networks cover that press conference out of Chicago, or was it just Fox?

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

If it goes to court I think the airline will win without question. As to the police, I have no idea if they violated laws or policies.

I'm not paid to drive a rental car. My personal savings would be at risk if something happened, so I'm not going to do that drive. My career depends on my health, so I'm not taking the risk of being hurt in a motor vehicle accident.

Good grief.

The amount of narcissism displayed in this single post is astounding. I guess the rest of us working professionals who travel as part of our career, and who are forced to get a rental car to reach our destination when the airlines inevitably fail to do their job, are just expendable burger flippers who don't have the exact same risks and concerns as you.

So to summarize your position here: Since you are too important to drive when your airline employer doesn't properly manage resources, the airline is perfectly justified to physically assault a paying seated customer so that you can take the seat instead. Got it.

It's as if some of you who are pilots cannot comprehend this was avoidable. Before the sarcasm started and we had to start naming our credentials it was pretty clear most people were trying to say much the same. The fact the flight was oversold doesn't matter. If that's the case then we'd be seeing bludgeoned passengers weekly.

As for my opinion and why I said what I did...I have close to two decades of experience working in the transportation industry. From sales to customer service to IT development. From carriers to suppliers to infrastructure. My wife has 20 years herself with even broader experience. I don't need a pilot to tell me I don't understand the situation because I'm not one. Pure arrogance. Further, overbooking and moving assets/resources is a common challenge in many modes of transport. No carrier likes assets and crews sitting doing nothing or not where they're needed. Guess what, customers don't like it either! It is a balancing game, but it's not rocket science.

Bottom line, you are not building the plane from scratch when you load it full of people. Several basic and simple processes at the time of boarding could have completely avoid this...period. Deflecting the blame off of UA because the contract of carriage "justifies" their actions seems like saying it's ok for pilots to get drunk and fly as long as they don't get caught.

What I think I know.

The flight was not overbooked, so that is a non issue pertaining to the need of 4 seats to move aircrew for a "down level" flight in order to continue flow of hundreds of numbers of passengers vs the 4 affected on this flight.

So, someone hops on the PA and says something like this... (Maybe they did, but not that I know from reports.)

"L&G, we have urgent need to seat 4 Flight crew members that must get to the destination in order to service flights going forward that will affect hundreds or thousands of passengers.

Now, many if not all of you have been delayed or missed flights in the past due to similar lack of aircrew due to circumstances beyond anyones control, weather, maintenance and other issues.

Given that we have no other means of rectifying this, we will be asking for volunteers to be compensated and rebooked as quickly as possible.

Please press the overhead call button if you are willing to help us with this need.

We do not wish to have to make this selection ourselves without first giving every oportunity to our customers to volunteer.

We only have about X minutes to complete thins with volunteers, before we need to select four passengers to be rebooked.

Thank you (and all that polite stuff)"

Most people are willing to "be of service" and will go out of their way and be inconvenienced if it is handled properly.

What happened was unconcionable and unfortunate.

A whole lot of damage done that could and should have been avoided.

Going fowrard, I hope UAL and those who can effect better future issues, do what needs to be done, will.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

When a pilot's wife offered an explanation, her view was dismissed because she wasn't there and didn't know what happened. The CEO wasn't there, was he.

The confusion appears to be whether this doctor was innocently beaten and dragged, or was defying law enforcement. It appears that United really had nothing to do with it.

Nope, everything to do with it. Policies and procedures of United had EVERYTHING to do with it.


In your world, I can open a restaurant, have you pay for your food before hand, have someone cook your meal, sit it down in front of you and at the last minute, ask that you instead give it back to your cook because he was hungry and needed the energy to make more food for all of the customers that come after you. Once you tell me "no", that you will not give up your meal, I can then go about calling the cops in order to make you comply and if they happen to bust your face or hip or whatever other part of your body....it's okay because it's my policy and you agreed to it before hand? That about right? Jeez, no wonder people have a distaste for cops and greedy corporations. This has been eye opening to say the least.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
I wonder if you took this away from an airline setting into another where a customer was defying requests, instructions, commands, to the point law enforcement was called, then persisted in defying the LEOs, who then proceed to remove the defiant one, the analysis is any different, or if the hapless business would suffer the negatives. If law enforcement was called in, and handled it like this, why would it be the fault or responsibility of the business on whose premises it occurred?

Picking a similar situation is difficult, because the patron paid first, before the service. I'll go with a movie theater.

You pay to see a movie and the movie is sold out. You go to your seat, dig into the popcorn and an employee tells you you have to leave. There are other, more important guests who showed up late and would like to watch the movie, so you have to leave. The theater will gladly exchange your tickets for tomorrow's show. If you do not vacate the seat you paid for, the police will be called for this civil matter and arrest you for not following their directions to vacate the theater.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

When a pilot's wife offered an explanation, her view was dismissed because she wasn't there and didn't know what happened. The CEO wasn't there, was he.

The confusion appears to be whether this doctor was innocently beaten and dragged, or was defying law enforcement. It appears that United really had nothing to do with it.

Nope, everything to do with it. Policies and procedures of United had EVERYTHING to do with it.


In your world, I can open a restaurant, have you pay for your food before hand, have someone cook your meal, sit it down in front of you and at the last minute, ask that you instead give it back to your cook because he was hungry and needed the energy to make more food for all of the customers that come after you. Once you tell me "no", that you will not give up your meal, I can then go about calling the cops in order to make you comply and if they happen to bust your face or hip or whatever other part of your body....it's okay because it's my policy and you agreed to it before hand? That about right? Jeez, no wonder people have a distaste for cops and greedy corporations. This has been eye opening to say the least.

Nonsense.

More problems......(Maybe)
More Trouble For United: N.J. Woman Says Drunk Man Groped Her On Flight
​A New Jersey woman was allegedly groped on a United Airlines flight last month, as attendants kept giving him whiskeys, reports say.
By Tom Davis (Patch Staff) - April 13, 2017 12:18 pm ET
More Trouble For United: N.J. Woman Says Drunk Man Groped Her On Flight
A New Jersey woman says she was groped on a United Airlines flight last month - even though attendants kept giving the alleged groper whiskeys while he was engaging in bad behavior, according to reports.

Jennifer Rafieyan of Warren says she and her 12-year-old daughter were awaiting takeoff on a United Airlines flight from Newark Liberty International Airport to Phoenix when they watched a flight attendant seat a visibly drunk man in the empty aisle seat next to them, according to a Huffington Post article published Tuesday.

“[One attendant] made some comment to me like, ‘This is going to be an interesting flight,’ and looked at him,” Rafieyan, 47, told the publication. “And then the other flight attendant came up and said, ‘Let me know if you need anything. I mean it’― and she looked at him.”

The 64-year-old then rubbed her legs, grabbed her knee, kissed her hands, put his head on her shoulder and snatched her pen and notepad to add “PASIONAT NITE XX” to the to-do list she was writing as she sat on the plane, according to the report. Her daughter was right next to her.

Efforts to obtain comment from the Federal Aviation Administration were not immediately successful. United representatives said in an email that the airline apologized to Rafieyan and sent her four $100 travel vouchers though the company did not acknowledge her accusations or the alleged groping.

The alleged incident could be another black eye for United since a video of a passenger being forcibly removed from a flight surfaced this past week. United is Newark Liberty International Airport's largest airline.

Gov. Chris Christie has written a letter to U.S. Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao, asking her to immediately suspend the federal regulation permitting airlines to overbook flights and to remove passengers as a result.

Rafieyan, a married mother of three, said flight attendants told her they were sorry for the man's behavior but that nothing could be done, according to nj.com. The man was allowed to continue ordering drinks, and downed three more whiskeys and a small bottle of wine, the report said.

He didn't touch Rafieyan again after she complained, but the man got belligerent during the rest of the flight and accused multiple people of stealing his passport, according to nj.com. He also refused to sit down until a flight attendant said the plane would be diverted and forced to make an emergency landing.


The Federal Aviation Administration doesn't allow airlines to board passengers who are visibly intoxicated, the reports said, and United has a similar policy that it can deny entry to a flight to someone who is drunk.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

When a pilot's wife offered an explanation, her view was dismissed because she wasn't there and didn't know what happened. The CEO wasn't there, was he.

The confusion appears to be whether this doctor was innocently beaten and dragged, or was defying law enforcement. It appears that United really had nothing to do with it.

Nope, everything to do with it. Policies and procedures of United had EVERYTHING to do with it.


In your world, I can open a restaurant, have you pay for your food before hand, have someone cook your meal, sit it down in front of you and at the last minute, ask that you instead give it back to your cook because he was hungry and needed the energy to make more food for all of the customers that come after you. Once you tell me "no", that you will not give up your meal, I can then go about calling the cops in order to make you comply and if they happen to bust your face or hip or whatever other part of your body....it's okay because it's my policy and you agreed to it before hand? That about right? Jeez, no wonder people have a distaste for cops and greedy corporations. This has been eye opening to say the least.

Nonsense.

Nice rebuttal there Cochise! What makes any of what I said nonsense? You lack of understanding the situation does not change the situation. This scenario can be played out in most of the service industry. I gave an example of a hotel earlier. Wanna take your shot at that one?

It's your anniversary. You went and paid $5000 for the week long stay at an uppity and posh resort. You get your room key, and you get upstairs with your significant other. Unpack for your week long stay, shower, pop your Viagra, light some candles, etc and as you are getting ready to rip your ladies panties off, in comes some buffoon saying that the manager needs the room because he has to get some sleep before he goes to work the next day (because, you know, the people he encounters tomorrow are more important than I am). What do you do? If you say no, you will be beaten to a bloody pulp however if you comply, they will put you up in a Holiday Inn on the other side of town next week. Seem fair?

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:....So you are saying there was no consideration about the hundreds of passengers the next day who would have their flights cancelled if the crew didn't get there? This was entirely a profit motive, with no concern for providing the service to those hundreds of passengers the next day?....

So four(?) United employees don't make that particular flight, there is no Plan B, no reasonable alternative to get them to their destination, which would result in flight cancellations the next day. And there is no Plan B to staff those flights the next day, so they must be cancelled. And the only possible solution is to pick a person at random, who has already paid, boarded, seated, and tell him to get his arse off the plane now. Maybe United needs to hire one more staffer to work on "Plan B".

Seems to me the more you try to defend the action, the more self-serving United seems to be.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

When a pilot's wife offered an explanation, her view was dismissed because she wasn't there and didn't know what happened. The CEO wasn't there, was he.

The confusion appears to be whether this doctor was innocently beaten and dragged, or was defying law enforcement. It appears that United really had nothing to do with it.

Nope, everything to do with it. Policies and procedures of United had EVERYTHING to do with it.


In your world, I can open a restaurant, have you pay for your food before hand, have someone cook your meal, sit it down in front of you and at the last minute, ask that you instead give it back to your cook because he was hungry and needed the energy to make more food for all of the customers that come after you. Once you tell me "no", that you will not give up your meal, I can then go about calling the cops in order to make you comply and if they happen to bust your face or hip or whatever other part of your body....it's okay because it's my policy and you agreed to it before hand? That about right? Jeez, no wonder people have a distaste for cops and greedy corporations. This has been eye opening to say the least.

Nonsense.

Nice rebuttal there Cochise! What makes any of what I said nonsense? You lack of understanding the situation does not change the situation. This scenario can be played out in most of the service industry. I gave an example of a hotel earlier. Wanna take your shot at that one?

It's your anniversary. You went and paid $5000 for the week long stay at an uppity and posh resort. You get your room key, and you get upstairs with your significant other. Unpack for your week long stay, shower, pop your Viagra, light some candles, etc and as you are getting ready to rip your ladies panties off, in comes some buffoon saying that the manager needs the room because he has to get some sleep before he goes to work the next day (because, you know, the people he encounters tomorrow are more important than I am). What do you do? If you say no, you will be beaten to a bloody pulp however if you comply, they will put you up in a Holiday Inn on the other side of town next week. Seem fair?

Come on. Seriously. These examples for comparison sake are indeed utter nonsense.