quote:

Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
Regardless of what you think about Steve Turley, I found this vid to be very interesting and worth a watch. Just ignore the initial part where he puffs himself and his new book.


Link to original video: https://youtu.be/4WiktfMIH7U

I appreciate that the UMC took the route that it did. It rejected one aspect of liberalism that had no place in the Christian church. Be that as it may, the UMC, at least the American UMC (because I don't know what the UMC is like in other countries), is still catering to liberal political correctness. Namely, ordaining women with "full clergy rights."

There is simply no way around it. That women should not be pastors to men is as black and white in scripture as is the fact that homosexuality is a sin. In the case of the UMC, they simply do not follow a biblical outline for a church, and accordingly, where women are pastors, they aren't one.

If the UMC wishes to base itself on the Word of God, and demonstrates it by maintaining a scriptural view of sexuality, then it must do so in whole, and not in part, and reject women as pastors. As is stands, the UMC is picking and choosing the scripture it wishes to follow. With scripture, you either take it all, or you take nothing. You can't pick and choose with God's Word.

I am not a Methodist, so I can't claim to have a personal interest; but I am encouraged to see "Conservative" values being defended against creeping post-modern Liberalism.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
There is simply no way around it. That women should not be pastors to men is as black and white in scripture as is the fact that homosexuality is a sin. In the case of the UMC, they simply do not follow a biblical outline for a church, and accordingly, where women are pastors, they aren't one.

If the UMC wishes to base itself on the Word of God, and demonstrates it by maintaining a scriptural view of sexuality, then it must do so in whole, and not in part, and reject women as pastors. As is stands, the UMC is picking and choosing the scripture it wishes to follow. With scripture, you either take it all, or you take nothing. You can't pick and choose with God's Word.

If anything has got to go, it's this "all or nothing" business.

No one. No one takes all of the words in the Bible anymore. Perhaps now would be a good time to stop insisting on it. While you harp on homosexuality and women not being pastors, you can't honestly believe all the things about when to stone people, menstruation, and more. How about Slavery? It's totally OK according to the Bible. Abraham wasn't 900 years old.. Etc.

Here is where you find some passage and "interpret" it to prove me wrong. Mmm Hmm. Insisting on a "black and white" literal reading and then bobbing and weaving just undermines ones credibility. That kind of gymnastics would be unnecessary if we all just admit that the Bible is allegory and in 2019 nobody takes it word for word. Because it was written a long time ago. It's clearly been revised and modified, which puts it well ahead of dead texts like the Koran as far as being useful.

Some things in the Bible will continue to speak to people, others necessarily should be put to the wayside, because they are relics of another time and don't actually add to the message. Exactly which words and passages is going to vary by church, even among a given denomination.

When it comes down to women being pastors, I can't say I have an opinion on this one way or another, as long as women can serve in the church in some capacity and priests need not be celibate. I think Catholicism got the whole celibate priest thing wrong, and it helped them develop the continuing sex abuse scandal they have today. Which they should really cut the crap and deal with, because over time they may never recover from the damage it is doing to that church.

I'm old fashioned in one sense, if I'm going to read a Bible it will be the King James, because while you can debate the translation, the language is a thing of beauty. Newer texts that seek to simplify the language, or make it easier to understand, are misguided and soulless.

Some texts shouldn't be revised or interpreted, or changed. Like the Constitution. But if Christians view the Bible the way Islam views the Koran, that's not a good thing, and it's part of the reason that Islam is crippled. At least Christians got over killing each other about who was right, and can have discussions about it. Different sects can coexist.

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
Agree this thread was not originally about abortion. Back OT, our Senior Pastor, who was one of the 800+ delegates, reported to the congregation this morning. He described the proceedings and the options that had been considered and how the voting came out. He also expressed his opinion that the decision would not have much impact on our particular church, because we are one that welcomes any person to attend and are dedicated to treating them as a child of God. I believe that is the Christian thing to do, but I also don't think Christ intended that his Church should support sinful acts and adopt sinful practices and teachings. Therefore I agree with the prohibition of ordaining and marrying LGBTQ+ people. We have at least 4 such persons singing in our adult Choir and they are loved and cherished as persons. They are not in leadership positions.

flashguy

Here today, and as minute by minute goes by, and the Left pushes increasingly insane legislation, I do think it is important that there remain a place for traditional religion and values. Though I haven't been a practicing Christian in some time, if anyone is going to mount a principled opposition to the Left, it's going to be folks who are aligned with Christian values, even if they don't consider themselves Christian. This is why I don't really like "all or nothing" approaches, and certainly not a literalist take on the Bible. Should anyone be in a great big hurry to brand others apostate, when there is more shared ground than not?

When it comes to what a church wants to do, be it exclude gays or women for some reason, I'd say that is the business of that religious institution. My opposition to teachings of any religion, only come up when it's time for a government to legislate. I personally am no "advocate" for Abortion, but I believe in individual rights, and don't trust the government to safeguard well, any rights.

Meanwhile, the Left would use Government to make sure that all religions comply with well, the new Religion that is The Left. That's where we're headed, any time the government is given more power. Unless folks stick together, Christians, not-so-christians, and non-christians who wish to be a free people. Hard to do that if it's "black and white.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
If anything has got to go, it's this "all or nothing" business.

Right. It matters not what Jesus said as we clearly know more about salvation than He does.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

No one. No one takes all of the words in the Bible anymore. Perhaps now would be a good time to stop insisting on it. While you harp on homosexuality and women not being pastors, you can't honestly believe all the things about when to stone people, menstruation, and more. How about Slavery? It's totally OK according to the Bible. Abraham wasn't 900 years old.. Etc.

Here is where you find some passage and "interpret" it to prove me wrong. Mmm Hmm. Insisting on a "black and white" literal reading and then bobbing and weaving just undermines ones credibility. That kind of gymnastics would be unnecessary if we all just admit that the Bible is allegory and in 2019 nobody takes it word for word. Because it was written a long time ago. It's clearly been revised and modified, which puts it well ahead of dead texts like the Koran as far as being useful.

Well, I believe the Bible to be true and I do take it word for word. Quite frankly I have not seen any evidence that it has been revised or modified. I understand when Jesus is speaking in parables to explain a concept that can be understood by people who lived over 2000 years ago and people today. I also understand when he is explaining things directly. Do I believe that God created earth in 6 24 hour days and rested on the 7th? - Yes. Do I believe that the world was most likely a much different place before the great flood and that things that are a bit hard for us to imagine now actually happened then? - Yes. Do I think the earth's age should be measured in thousands of years and not millions or billions? - Yes.
Based on some of what you say above, it would seem that you have some fundamental misunderstandings with the Bible in general and unfortunately, it does not seem that you have ears to hear what the truth is...at least not at this point in time. For a Christian, you have to believe in the Bible, not just the parts that align with your 2019 understanding of the world. Has anyone in the history of mankind every truly understood every little thing in the Bible exactly? - I would think not. However, I think to begin to understand takes faith, prayer, a lot of consistent study, and getting together with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to discuss God's Word.
One can not pick and choose which parts of the Bible are true or still applicable. Some things are black and white. Some things are absolute. The problem for some is that taking that stance is pretty uncomfortable at times, especially when what the world thinks of you becomes more important than what your Heavenly Father thinks of you.
One of the truly amazing and rewarding things that comes with studying the Bible is that the more you study it (with a heart and mind open to God), the more it makes sense and you start to see how wonderfully it all fits together. This does not come easy to most.....It has certainly not come easy to me and I admit that I have a lot more to learn. I will never know it all. However, I have experienced and learned enough to have a lot of faith in God's Word (and not my own understanding).

Arc, I hope what I have written here does not come across as an attack on you. That is not my tone at all. You made some pretty strong comments and I felt it necessary to respond.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
If anything has got to go, it's this "all or nothing" business.

Right. It matters not what Jesus said as we clearly know more about salvation than He does.

Did you bother reading the rest of what I had to say? Context is important, and I was talking about a whole lot of things in the bible that everyone ignores. Such as when to stone your wife, eating shellfish, take your pick there is a lot.

What Jesus had to say, even in those words there are some key things ignored. What was that about money lenders? Frankly I wish people listened to Jesus more when he was talking about how you should arm yourself, plenty of people seem content to ignore that.

The Bible says a lot of things, and we can find two people (more really) who can get different things out of the same "literal" texts. Like it or not, the Bible is written by man, and if it is the word of God, it is still through man filtered.

If every word of the Bible today must be followed to the letter today, then frankly that sounds a lot like fundamentalist Islam to me. That's a backwards path if ever there was one.

Cherry picking the Bible is as much a problem as saying you've got to take it all literally.

I see the evil that the Left would perpetrate if they could, and I'm not going to help them, if I'm not good enough for the pure Christians, that's a shame. I think there are a lot of folk like me, and it would be a shame to shut the door on us. I don't want godless communism, but I'll not sit down and let a theocracy take root.

I'll say again that as far as I'm concerned, what a church does inside its doors is the business of the church. Short of systemic sex abuse, that is. Freedom of religion is part of why this country exists. Not all of it. But one that cannot and should not be extinguished.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

If anything has got to go, it's this "all or nothing" business.

No one. No one takes all of the words in the Bible anymore. Perhaps now would be a good time to stop insisting on it. While you harp on homosexuality and women not being pastors, you can't honestly believe all the things about when to stone people, menstruation, and more. How about Slavery? It's totally OK according to the Bible. Abraham wasn't 900 years old.. Etc.

Here is where you find some passage and "interpret" it to prove me wrong. Mmm Hmm. Insisting on a "black and white" literal reading and then bobbing and weaving just undermines ones credibility. That kind of gymnastics would be unnecessary if we all just admit that the Bible is allegory and in 2019 nobody takes it word for word. Because it was written a long time ago. It's clearly been revised and modified, which puts it well ahead of dead texts like the Koran as far as being useful.

Some things in the Bible will continue to speak to people, others necessarily should be put to the wayside, because they are relics of another time and don't actually add to the message. Exactly which words and passages is going to vary by church, even among a given denomination.

...

I'm old fashioned in one sense, if I'm going to read a Bible it will be the King James, because while you can debate the translation, the language is a thing of beauty. Newer texts that seek to simplify the language, or make it easier to understand, are misguided and soulless.

Some texts shouldn't be revised or interpreted, or changed. Like the Constitution. But if Christians view the Bible the way Islam views the Koran, that's not a good thing, and it's part of the reason that Islam is crippled. At least Christians got over killing each other about who was right, and can have discussions about it. Different sects can coexist.

I'm not going to argue with you. I have no hope of changing your mind by arguing your points, pulling out proof texts, or by stating my interpretation of the Bible. My faith is not your faith. My understanding of the bible is not your understanding of the bible. No matter how much I would argue with you, arguing cannot instill in you the faith that Christians have in God, Christ, and the written Word. Because faith doesn't come from reason. You can't approach faith from the perspective of reason. I say this with all compassion for you: you simply don't understand what and why Christians believe what they believe. But, then again, you aren't supposed to understand it. It's paradoxical: you don't believe it because you can't believe it.

Arc, maybe the best thing I've ever heard on the subject was a sermon by the late Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones in, I think, 1957. If you have a genuine desire to understand what Christians have come to understand, then give it a listen. It will cost you 55 minutes of your time. But maybe you will come away with something useful out of it.

I was at the conference in St. Louis. 40% of the Traditional plan had been ruled unconstitutional. The whole plan will be reviewed by the Judicial Council of the worldwide UMC, not just straight, white, North Americans.
Many of the African Bishops are from countries where Homosexuality is illegal: they had to vote against the Simple Plan and the One Church Plan. Some of the Asians openly stated from the floor that if they supported anything but the traditional plan, the Muslim majorities in their countries may well kill them.
The one church plan was recommended by the council of Bishops from all over the world, (except Mexico, which has its' own governance structure.) Over 60% of North American delegates
supported the one church plan. The Deans of all the Methodist seminaries warned that the traditional Plan would drive away prospective students, straight or LGBTQ. The Bishops are already hearing people call the UMC 'The Church of "NO"" BTW, can anyone quote me a verse from the Gospels where Jesus says being gay/ Lesbian is a sin? Up until well into the Civil War, portions of the Methodist Church supported slavery. Women were not extended full ordination until 1956.
The St. Louis conference was just a warm-up for the General Conference actually scheduled for 2020 in Indianapolis. The so-called Traditionalists have not won; their plan is under judicial review and will, at the very least, fail to survive intact.

quote:

Originally posted by LtJL:
BTW, can anyone quote me a verse from the Gospels where Jesus says being gay/ Lesbian is a sin?

And I say to you with all compassion, that this is the sort of thing non-Christians say. Being part of A church doesn't make you a Christian. A Christian is known by the fruits they produce. And a fruit is the knowledge that the whole bible is the word of God.

I hear this a lot. "Did Jesus say that, or did Paul?" It matters not. The entire Bible is the word of God. Whether it is the words of God the Son, or the words of God the Father, or the words of God the Holy Spirit through the writers, like Paul, it is ALL the word of God. Accordingly, the answer to your unasked questions is, yes, God says in his word homosexuality is a sin.

If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act.
–Leviticus 20:13

And there are many more.

The problem with the UMC is that is has fallen hard into apostasy. Whether or not it voted down the newest plan matters little because it is still steeped in apostasy. It has departed from the inerrant word of God and has cherry picked and chosen the verses it thinks supports its apostasy, and tried to explain others away, and driven a wedge between Christ and the Apostle Paul by claiming, "Jesus didn't say, just Paul did." In other words, the UMC has thrown the bible out the door and has chosen to follow a non-biblical path. The UMC is no longer a church. And many, if not most, of the people in it are not christian. You can't be christian and support anything other than a biblical church. Being a christian church and being a biblical one are inseparable. Oh, people will say otherwise. But doing so is the definition of apostasy. UMC member can give each other all the huggy-wuggys they want, and all the gay affirmations they want, and in so doing they deny God and the bible.

Oh, and here's another verse for the UMC membership:

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."
-1 Timothy 2:11-12

The UMC could take a lesson from the Gideons - the ones who put all those bible in hotel rooms. The introduction in the bible they publish says:

quote:

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler's map, the pilgram's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter. Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.

CHRIST is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.

It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

If anything has got to go, it's this "all or nothing" business.

No one. No one takes all of the words in the Bible anymore. Perhaps now would be a good time to stop insisting on it.

You have a plausible, logical point.
But the bigger point (as with almost everything) is "Who gets to decide?"

I submit that it is the members of the Church that get to decide, and I applaud them for not compromising their moral principles to accomodate politically-correct fads.

If someone wants to start or join the "Church of What's Hapnin' Now" they can go do that too!

And I think this really is just a fad. Remember the early 70'S ? All sort of pornography was being sold on grocery store magazine shelves, because "you couldn't impose morality"....."can't infringe freedom of speech"....then society woke up and said "What the hell were we thinking ?!?!?!"

quote:

You have a plausible, logical point.
But the bigger point (as with almost everything) is "Who gets to decide?"

I submit that it is the members of the Church that get to decide, and I applaud them for not compromising their moral principles to accomodate politically-correct fads.

If someone wants to start or join the "Church of What's Hapnin' Now" they can go do that too!

And I think this really is just a fad. Remember the early 70'S ? All sort of pornography was being sold on grocery store magazine shelves, because "you couldn't impose morality"....."can't infringe freedom of speech"....then society woke up and said "What the hell were we thinking ?!?!?!"

...................................
Sorry guys, but only God gets to decide. It is up to us to obey Him or to invent our own truth. Whatever you want to say, in the end, it is only what God thinks that is important. We have to decide whether to do it His way, or if we want to do it the way people want to do it. Scripture says that the wisdom of God is foolishness to man. It also says that His ways are not our ways. When people do it according to how they think it should be done, they do it at their own peril...

quote:

Originally posted by dwood4:
Sorry guys, but only God gets to decide. It is up to us to obey Him or to invent our own truth. Whatever you want to say, in the end, it is only what God thinks that is important. We have to decide whether to do it His way, or if we want to do it the way people want to do it. Scripture says that the wisdom of God is foolishness to man. It also says that His ways are not our ways. When people do it according to how they think it should be done, they do it at their own peril...

If he has an opinion, he had best speak up. Lots of people are ignoring that book a lot of you are fond of. Your argument is not compelling to people who don't believe in a god, and for those of us who believe in a higher power but don't trust established religion, we are nonplussed.

The left is nuts now, the late term and live birth murder has eclipsed the whole gay thing. Naked antisemitism is now a requirement for a democratic presidential bid. It would seem they are but steps away from being openly communist and muslim.

Yay tolerance and multiculturalism. Wooo. Look at how diverse, fair and equitable we are. Happy happy joy joy.

I'd say that now, is a bad time to go with the "you guys don't understand because you can't, or god doesn't want you to." strategy.

What really blows my mind right now, are judaeo-christian people on the left. I'm stumped how they reconcile any of what is going on.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
If he has an opinion, he had best speak up.

Are you under some impression that what is going on today is new? That God is facing something now that he hasn't faced in the past, or that his Word doesn't address?

What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9

Ecclesiastes was written in the 4th century BC.

There's a false God mentioned in the Bible several times. Moloch, or Moloch-Baal. He was a god of the Canaanites, among others. His followers believed that they had to sacrifice their newborn children to this false God. They built a bronze idol of Moloch, who supposedly had a human body and a bull's head. These large bronze idols had holes in them into followers laid their newborn children. But before doing so, a fire was built and stoked inside the idol to the point that the statue was red hot. Then the child was placed inside to cook alive. It was called "passing your child through the fire to Moloch." The people who preached the practice beat drums to drown out the sound of people who opposed or lamented it, and to drown out the screams of the child that was burning alive. This practice lasted hundred of years until God crushed the people that did it and replaced them with the Israelites. And when the Israelites started to go in that direction, he overthrew them, too. Infanticide is nothing new. Liberalism is the new religion of Moloch. Liberals are the new followers of Baal.

Pedophilia is nothing new. Followers of Baal used children as temple prostitutes. It was addressed in the bible. Are not liberals now trying to (re)normalize pedophilia?

Abortion is nothing new. It's addressed in the bible.

Jew-hatred is nothing new. It's addressed in the bible.

Nations, borders, races, and the expected conduct of immigrants (sojourners) in the nation into which they go, is nothing new. It's all addressed in the bible.

God in the bible speaks to homosexuality, pornography, beastiality, and every manner of sexual sin, and condemns it. The bible even tells us that those that engage in homosexuality will experience illnesses that arise from it, taking into their flesh the due penalty, thereof. It's nothing new.

The bible speaks to marriage, children, and the conduct of churches, and the doctrine they must follow. It speaks to church leaders. It excludes leaders from the church who deal in false doctrines - doctrines inconsistent with the bible. It excludes from leadership those involved in sexual sin, including homosexuality.

So when you say, "If he has an opinion, he had best speak up," God says, "I already have."

There's not a person out there that doesn't believe in God. There are no atheists. The bible speaks to that, too. People reject God and the bible for one reason and one reason only - that to accept it would make their lives accountable to someone who is good, and just, and people just don't want to be accountable to anyone, or to give up the sin in their lives that feels so good.

The precepts of the bible are inconsistent with the types of life we want to live. I struggle everyday to give up my sins to which I have grown so accustomed, but which I know are unhealthy to me, and which, more importantly, displease God. I thank God everyday that he has shown me mercy through the night and allowed me to a wake up the next morning.

quote:

Originally posted by LtJL:
...can anyone quote me a verse from the Gospels where Jesus says being gay/ Lesbian is a sin?....

Matthew 19: 4-6. Jesus defines marriage as one man and one woman. Can you show me where in the Bible God says sex outside of marriage is okay?



.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:


There is simply no way around it. That women should not be pastors to men is as black and white in scripture ...

That isn't in scripture. You are taking a piece of scripture out of context where Paul tells women to be quiet during church service. Otherwise, how can you explain the role of Priscilla in the New Testament?



.

quote:

Originally posted by TigerDore:

That isn't in scripture. You are taking a piece of scripture out of context where Paul tells women to be quiet during church service. Otherwise, how can you explain the role of Priscilla in the New Testament?

Acts 18:26 explains it. Paul does not prohibit a women being a teacher. Acts says Pricilla "explained" the way of God more accurately to Apollos. Nowhere does scripture say Pricilla was a pastor. Nor any other woman.

Women have gifts, may serve, may teach, may minister, etc. But 1 Timothy 2:12 is clear, women may not be pastor as they are prohibited from having authority over men. Pricilla was not a pastor.

In addition, Paul said an overseer is to be a man, a husband of one wife. Overseerer in the bible is the pastor, or shepherd.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

Are you under some impression that what is going on today is new? That God is facing something now that he hasn't faced in the past, or that his Word doesn't address?

Even as a non-literal-Bible believer, this was the most stunningly profound thing I got out of reading the Bible. Humanity has not changed at all since, literally, the beginning of recorded human history. Not really one bit.

Christians focus so heavily on their own belief that they forget to note that the proscriptions against homosexuality are not just a "Abrahamic-religion taboo". Homosexuality is discouraged, considered "undesirable", or some level of "sin", in every significant religion and human culture. Remember that even the famously-tolerant ancient Greeks did not have "Gay marriage". They TOLERATED homosexuality, and wrote about it, precisely because it was "unusual and controversial", much in the same was as we still "tolerate" it.
The Odyssey was Homer's epic tale of faithful marriage and love between one man and one woman. Homer certainly wasn't influenced by judeo-christianity!

quote:

Remember that even the famously-tolerant ancient Greeks did not have "Gay marriage". They TOLERATED homosexuality...

Well said, Crom.
I think most people are tolerant.
I also think the militant homosexuals, with outsize political influence (particularly over the Democrat party) have taken it way too far.

quote:

I'd say that now, is a bad time to go with the "you guys don't understand because you can't, or god doesn't want you to." strategy.

Dont see anywhere in my post where that was said Arc. My point was that what we as people think isnt important. What God wants from us is obedience. Its a choice. Do we submit to Him and take His word as truth, or do we worry about what most of mankinds opinion is? At the end of the day, I will go with what the creator of everything, the One who sent His Son as our salvation, over what is currently politically correct.

And I agree with you that it isnt understandable how quote christians can belong to the left. To belong to that thought you have to begin with abortion and gay marriage. Not plausible with the Bible.