quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:
I have many gay and lesbian friends, some of which are extremely spiritual and very much believe in the word of God. While I think that every denomination has the right to hold fast to their beliefs I think you could also argue that it is resulting in a decline numbers within their respective churches.

Tis true. Many people are willing to compromise the true faith for the sake of political correctness. But as the good Dr. Jerry Kulah said in his letter posted above, "The Christian Church, bought and birthed with the blood of Jesus Christ is not and cannot be a social club; it cannot be directed by any form of political activism that contradicts the teachings of Scripture."

Many so called churches today are not any kind of church at all. The [American] United Methodist Church, Presbyterian Church USA, and others have departed from the bible and have made their own rules - ordaining women preachers, claiming sanctity of gay marriage, and affirming homosexuality as non-sinful, among other things. In so doing, they have ceased to be churches, though there may be some Christians yet left in them. These places have become what Paul wrote to Timothy (2 Timothy 4:3) "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires."

quote:

Originally posted by maximus_flavius:

I could not disagree more.

Reason is the basis of a moral society. You cannot reason me into gassing Jews (your example).

Religion has been used to rationailze plenty of evil in the past.

There are plenty of people who believe in a creator, & don’t believe being gay (or other factors) makes them immoral. I couldn’t care less what the gays do, as long as they leave me alone. The Methodit’s have a right to run their organization however they want, I could care less. I don’t need a preacher telling me anything.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Oddly enough, this is the same church I stopped attending, because it supports abortion...

FYI - Pro choice is not pro abortion

Sophistry.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Oddly enough, this is the same church I stopped attending, because it supports abortion...

FYI - Pro choice is not pro abortion

Sophistry.

care to explain this please?

quote:

Originally posted by vinnybass:

This guy gets it.

quote:

23 February 2019
Brothers and sister of The United Methodist Church from all around the world, I humbly greet you in the strong name of Jesus Christ!

We thank God for all who have participated in observing a sacred season of fasting and prayer as we have prepared for this special General Conference session. And we praise God there are thousands upon thousands still on bended knees interceding on our behalf as we make a defining decision regarding the future of The United Methodist Church.

I thank God for His precious Word to us, and I thank him for you, my dear sisters and brothers in Christ.

As the General Coordinator of UMC Africa Initiative I greet you on behalf of all its members and leaders. We want to thank the Renewal and Reform Coalition within the United Methodist Church for the invitation to address you at this important breakfast meeting.

As I understand it, the plans before us seek to find a lasting solution to the long debate over our church’s sexual ethics, its teachings on marriage, and it ordination standards.

This debate and the numerous acts of defiance have brought the United Methodist Church to a crossroads (Jeremiah 6:16).

One plans invites the people called United Methodists to take a road in opposition to the Bible and two thousand years of Christian teachings. Going down that road would divide the church. Those advocating for the One Church Plan would have us take that road.

Another road invites us to reaffirm Christian teachings rooted in Scripture and the church’s rich traditions.

It says, “All persons are individuals of sacred worth, created in the image of God,” that “All persons need the ministry of the Church,” and that “We affirm that God’s grace is available to all.”

It grounds our sexual ethics in Scripture when it says, the UM Church does “not condone the practice of homosexuality and considers [it] incompatible with Christian teaching.”

While “we commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons,” we do not celebrate same-sex marriages or ordain for ministry people who self-avow as practicing homosexuals. These practices do not conform to the authentic teaching of the Holy Scriptures, our primary authority for faith and Christian living.

However, we extend grace to all people because we all know we are sinners in need of God’s redeeming. We know how critical and life changing God’s grace has been in our own lives.

We warmly welcome all people to our churches; we long to be in fellowship with them, to pray with them, to weep with them, and to experience the joy of transformation with them.

Friends, please hear me, we Africans are not afraid of our sisters and brothers who identify as lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgendered, questioning, or queer. We love them and we hope the best for them. But we know of no compelling arguments for forsaking our church’s understanding of Scripture and the teachings of the church universal.

And then please hear me when I say as graciously as I can: we Africans are not children in need of western enlightenment when it comes to the church’s sexual ethics. We do not need to hear a progressive U.S. bishop lecture us about our need to “grow up.”

Let me assure you, we Africans, whether we have liked it or not, have had to engage in this debate for many years now. We stand with the global church, not a culturally liberal, church elite, in the U.S.

We stand with our Filipino friends! We stand with our sisters and brothers in Europe and Russia! And yes, we stand with our allies in America.

We stand with farmers in Zambia, tech workers in Nairobi, Sunday School teachers in Nigeria, biblical scholars in Liberia, pastors in the Congo, United Methodist Women in Cote d’Ivoire, and thousands of other United Methodists all across Africa who have heard no compelling reasons for changing our sexual ethics, our teachings on marriage, and our ordination standards!

We are grounded in God’s word and the gracious and clear teachings of our church. On that we will not yield! We will not take a road that leads us from the truth! We will take the road that leads to the making of disciples of Jesus Christ for transformation of the world!

I hope and pray, for your sake, that you will walk down that road with us. We would warmly welcome you as our traveling companions, but if you choose another road, we Africans cannot go with you.

The vast majority of we Africans support the Modified Traditional Plan for two very important reasons.

First, we believe it is clearly rooted in Scripture and the teachings of Christians in all times and in all places. It reaffirms our church’s belief that “marriage is defined as a sacred relationship between one man and one woman,” not between any two consenting adults.

Second, passage of the Modified Traditional Plan will keep far more United Methodists united as one church than any of the other plans.

I want to be united with my sisters and brothers in our global connection. I hope you want that as well. Let us all walk together in a church steeped in Scripture and the life transforming teachings of our church.

Finally, I trust you will support a gracious exit petition.

Some Africans have been told that if a gracious exit petition is passed our evangelical friends in the U.S. will go their own way and no longer support efforts in Africa. That is not true.

Many of us in Africa have developed deep and long lasting friendships with our brothers and sisters in the U.S. Those relationships will not be severed if a gracious exit petition passes.

Unfortunately, some United Methodists in the U.S. have the very faulty assumption that all Africans are concerned about is U.S. financial support. Well, I am sure, being sinners like all of you, some Africans are fixated on money.

But with all due respect, a fixation on money seems more of an American problem than an African one. We get by on far less than most Americans do; we know how to do it. I’m not so sure you do. So if anyone is so naïve or condescending as to think we would sell our birth right in Jesus Christ for American dollars, then they simply do not know us.

We are seriously joyful in following Jesus Christ and God’s holy word to us in the Bible. And in truth, we think many people in the U.S. and in parts of Europe could learn a great deal from us. The UM churches, pastors and lay people who partner with us acknowledge as much.

Please understand me when I say the vast majority of African United Methodists will never, ever trade Jesus and the truth of the Bible for money.

We will walk alone if necessary, and yet we are confident the ties of Christian fellowship we have with friends here in U.S. will not be severed even if they too must walk apart from a church that would adopt the One Church Plan.

We believe all local churches should be treated fairly and so we strongly support a gracious exit plan.

Friends, not too long ago my country was ravaged by a terrible civil war. And then we faced the outbreak of the Ebola virus. We are keenly familiar with hardship and sorrow, but Jesus has led us through every trial. So nothing that happens over the next few days will deter us from following Him, and Him alone.

We will persevere in the race before us. We will remain steadfast and faithful. And some day we will wear the victor’s crown of glory with our King Jesus! Come walk with us!


In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen!

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Oddly enough, this is the same church I stopped attending, because it supports abortion...

FYI - Pro choice is not pro abortion

Sophistry.

care to explain this please?

Sure. But understand I come from the perspective that abortion is murder. You may not.

If abortion is murder and you are not pro life but rather for an individual's right to choose to murder, what is the functional difference? Let's look at it this way. If you are not a murderer but think others should have the right to so do it, is that an innocent position? I say no and to try to navigate that morality with sophistry is borderline cowardice. You either protect or advocate for the defense of the innocent and helpless or you don't.

quote:

I do strongly believe that abortion should not be a replacement for lazy birth control habits but as a man it is not my choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:]
So the "as a man a can't speak" thing is obviously just faulty logic.

quote:

Abortions are a small fraction of what what PP offers but, on weekend mornings my little girl will go to clinics and help escort women, many of which are dealing with the hardest decision they will ever have to make, past shouting assholes that want to make a bad day even worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Oddly enough, this is the same church I stopped attending, because it supports abortion...

FYI - Pro choice is not pro abortion

Sophistry.

care to explain this please?

Sure. But understand I come from the perspective that abortion is murder. You may not.

If abortion is murder and you are not pro life but rather for an individual's right to choose to murder, what is the functional difference? Let's look at it this way. If you are not a murderer but think others should have the right to so do it, is that an innocent position? I say no and to try to navigate that morality with sophistry is borderline cowardice. You either protect or advocate for the defense of the innocent and helpless or you don't.

I understand and believe that you have your right to your beliefs however mine are different and for the sake of this post I am not speaking to the recent late term developments. I do believe in pro choice and strongly believe that it is nothing anyone truly wants to do. My daughter has volunteered at Planned parenthood for several years in trying to get an outreach program started to educate on birth control as the "just don't have sex" plan is not working. Abortions are a small fraction of what what PP offers but, on weekend mornings my little girl will go to clinics and help escort women, many of which are dealing with the hardest decision they will ever have to make, past shouting assholes that want to make a bad day even worse. I do strongly believe that abortion should not be a replacement for lazy birth control habits but as a man it is not my choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

quote:

Originally posted by vinnybass:

This guy gets it.

This guy is Dr. Jerry Kulah. He is Dean of Gbarnga School of Theology, United Methodist University in Liberia.


I just pretty much learned who this guy was. I must admit, I did not expect this kind of biblical clarity coming out of Africa. (To which I confess and repent.) I want to hear more from him. He seems to be a real light in the darkness of the apostasy that American "churches" have exported to Africa. I'm not sure what the modified traditional plan is that he speaks of, but if it is truly biblical, it seems that would be the only corect plan to follow. Here is the full text of his speech. it's amazing:

quote:

23 February 2019
Brothers and sister of The United Methodist Church from all around the world, I humbly greet you in the strong name of Jesus Christ!

We thank God for all who have participated in observing a sacred season of fasting and prayer as we have prepared for this special General Conference session. And we praise God there are thousands upon thousands still on bended knees interceding on our behalf as we make a defining decision regarding the future of The United Methodist Church.

I thank God for His precious Word to us, and I thank him for you, my dear sisters and brothers in Christ.

As the General Coordinator of UMC Africa Initiative I greet you on behalf of all its members and leaders. We want to thank the Renewal and Reform Coalition within the United Methodist Church for the invitation to address you at this important breakfast meeting.

As I understand it, the plans before us seek to find a lasting solution to the long debate over our church’s sexual ethics, its teachings on marriage, and it ordination standards.

This debate and the numerous acts of defiance have brought the United Methodist Church to a crossroads (Jeremiah 6:16).

One plans invites the people called United Methodists to take a road in opposition to the Bible and two thousand years of Christian teachings. Going down that road would divide the church. Those advocating for the One Church Plan would have us take that road.

Another road invites us to reaffirm Christian teachings rooted in Scripture and the church’s rich traditions.

It says, “All persons are individuals of sacred worth, created in the image of God,” that “All persons need the ministry of the Church,” and that “We affirm that God’s grace is available to all.”

It grounds our sexual ethics in Scripture when it says, the UM Church does “not condone the practice of homosexuality and considers [it] incompatible with Christian teaching.”

While “we commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons,” we do not celebrate same-sex marriages or ordain for ministry people who self-avow as practicing homosexuals. These practices do not conform to the authentic teaching of the Holy Scriptures, our primary authority for faith and Christian living.

However, we extend grace to all people because we all know we are sinners in need of God’s redeeming. We know how critical and life changing God’s grace has been in our own lives.

We warmly welcome all people to our churches; we long to be in fellowship with them, to pray with them, to weep with them, and to experience the joy of transformation with them.

Friends, please hear me, we Africans are not afraid of our sisters and brothers who identify as lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgendered, questioning, or queer. We love them and we hope the best for them. But we know of no compelling arguments for forsaking our church’s understanding of Scripture and the teachings of the church universal.

And then please hear me when I say as graciously as I can: we Africans are not children in need of western enlightenment when it comes to the church’s sexual ethics. We do not need to hear a progressive U.S. bishop lecture us about our need to “grow up.”

Let me assure you, we Africans, whether we have liked it or not, have had to engage in this debate for many years now. We stand with the global church, not a culturally liberal, church elite, in the U.S.

We stand with our Filipino friends! We stand with our sisters and brothers in Europe and Russia! And yes, we stand with our allies in America.

We stand with farmers in Zambia, tech workers in Nairobi, Sunday School teachers in Nigeria, biblical scholars in Liberia, pastors in the Congo, United Methodist Women in Cote d’Ivoire, and thousands of other United Methodists all across Africa who have heard no compelling reasons for changing our sexual ethics, our teachings on marriage, and our ordination standards!

We are grounded in God’s word and the gracious and clear teachings of our church. On that we will not yield! We will not take a road that leads us from the truth! We will take the road that leads to the making of disciples of Jesus Christ for transformation of the world!

I hope and pray, for your sake, that you will walk down that road with us. We would warmly welcome you as our traveling companions, but if you choose another road, we Africans cannot go with you.

The vast majority of we Africans support the Modified Traditional Plan for two very important reasons.

First, we believe it is clearly rooted in Scripture and the teachings of Christians in all times and in all places. It reaffirms our church’s belief that “marriage is defined as a sacred relationship between one man and one woman,” not between any two consenting adults.

Second, passage of the Modified Traditional Plan will keep far more United Methodists united as one church than any of the other plans.

I want to be united with my sisters and brothers in our global connection. I hope you want that as well. Let us all walk together in a church steeped in Scripture and the life transforming teachings of our church.

Finally, I trust you will support a gracious exit petition.

Some Africans have been told that if a gracious exit petition is passed our evangelical friends in the U.S. will go their own way and no longer support efforts in Africa. That is not true.

Many of us in Africa have developed deep and long lasting friendships with our brothers and sisters in the U.S. Those relationships will not be severed if a gracious exit petition passes.

Unfortunately, some United Methodists in the U.S. have the very faulty assumption that all Africans are concerned about is U.S. financial support. Well, I am sure, being sinners like all of you, some Africans are fixated on money.

But with all due respect, a fixation on money seems more of an American problem than an African one. We get by on far less than most Americans do; we know how to do it. I’m not so sure you do. So if anyone is so naïve or condescending as to think we would sell our birth right in Jesus Christ for American dollars, then they simply do not know us.

We are seriously joyful in following Jesus Christ and God’s holy word to us in the Bible. And in truth, we think many people in the U.S. and in parts of Europe could learn a great deal from us. The UM churches, pastors and lay people who partner with us acknowledge as much.

Please understand me when I say the vast majority of African United Methodists will never, ever trade Jesus and the truth of the Bible for money.

We will walk alone if necessary, and yet we are confident the ties of Christian fellowship we have with friends here in U.S. will not be severed even if they too must walk apart from a church that would adopt the One Church Plan.

We believe all local churches should be treated fairly and so we strongly support a gracious exit plan.

Friends, not too long ago my country was ravaged by a terrible civil war. And then we faced the outbreak of the Ebola virus. We are keenly familiar with hardship and sorrow, but Jesus has led us through every trial. So nothing that happens over the next few days will deter us from following Him, and Him alone.

We will persevere in the race before us. We will remain steadfast and faithful. And some day we will wear the victor’s crown of glory with our King Jesus! Come walk with us!


In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen!

Wow, and amen.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:
...I was asked last summer if I would have any issues doing a same sex marriage and my stance was that I have zero issues with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Oddly enough, this is the same church I stopped attending, because it supports abortion...

FYI - Pro choice is not pro abortion

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

FYI - Pro choice is not pro abortion

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:
Abortions are a small fraction of what what PP offers