Although I'm not very religous, my father, a grandfather, and an ex-wife were Methodist ministers.

United Methodist Church on edge of breakup over LGBTQ stand

The United Methodist Church teetered on the brink of breakup Monday after more than half the delegates at an international conference voted to maintain bans on same-sex weddings and ordination of gay clergy.

Their favored plan, if formally approved, could drive supporters of LGBTQ inclusion to leave America's second-largest Protestant denomination.

A final vote on rival plans for the church's future won't come until Tuesday's closing session, and the outcome remains uncertain. But the preliminary vote Monday showed that the Traditional Plan, which calls for keeping the LGBTQ bans and enforcing them more strictly, had the support of 56 percent of the more than 800 delegates attending the three-day conference in St. Louis.

The primary alternative proposal, called the One Church Plan, was rebuffed in a separate preliminary vote, getting only 47 percent support. Backed by a majority of the church's Council of Bishops in hopes of avoiding a schism, it would leave decisions about same-sex marriage and ordination of LGBTQ clergy up to regional bodies and would remove language from the church's law book asserting that "the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching."

Monday's voting did not kill the One Church Plan but makes its prospects on Tuesday far more difficult.

"This is really painful," said David Watson, a dean and professor at United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio, who was at the gathering. "Our disagreement has pitted friend against friend, which no one wanted."

Formed in a merger in 1968, the United Methodist Church claims about 12.6 million members worldwide, including nearly 7 million in the U.S. While other mainline Protestant denominations, such as the Episcopal and Presbyterian (U.S.A.) churches, have embraced the two gay-friendly practices, the Methodist church still officially bans them, even though acts of defiance by pro-LGBTQ clergy have multiplied and talk of a possible breakup has intensified.

The strong showing for the Traditional Plan reflects the fact that the UMC, unlike other mainstream Protestant churches in the U.S., is a global denomination. About 43 percent of the delegates in St. Louis are from abroad, mostly from Africa, and overwhelmingly support the LGBTQ bans.

"We Africans are not children in need of Western enlightenment when it comes to the church's sexual ethics," the Rev. Jerry Kulah, dean at a Methodist theology school in Liberia, said in a speech over the weekend. "We stand with the global church, not a culturally liberal church elite in the U.S."

The Africans have some strong allies among U.S. conservatives, including the Rev. John Miles II, senior pastor of First United Methodist Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas, who opposes same-sex marriage and gays in the pulpit.

"I have a very difficult time even though I have gays in my family and in my church," he said. "I know it grieves them and it grieves me to grieve them. But it's just what we believe is the truth."

In recent years, the church's enforcement of its LGBTQ bans has been inconsistent. Some clergy members have conducted same-sex marriages or come out as gay from the pulpit. In some cases, the church has filed charges against clergy who violated the bans, yet the denomination's Judicial Council has ruled against the imposition of mandatory penalties, which typically called for an unpaid suspension of at least one year.

The Traditional Plan would require stricter and more consistent enforcement.

Among the outspoken supporters of the more permissive One Church Plan was the Rev. Adam Hamilton, a pastor in Leawood, Kansas, who said it offered a way for Methodists "to live together — conservatives, centrists and progressives — despite our differences."
For LGBTQ Methodists, it is a time of anxiety.

"For me it's about who's in God's love, and nobody's left out of that," said Lois McCullen Parr, 60, a church elder from Albion, Michigan, who identifies as bisexual and queer. "The Gospel I understand said Jesus is always widening the circle, expanding the circle, so that everyone's included."

Link

It’s shocking that a Church even needs to vote on this.

quote:

"This is really painful," said David Watson, a dean and professor at United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio, who was at the gathering. "Our disagreement has pitted friend against friend, which no one wanted."

Well, it wouldn't have happened if the church actually stood up for it's own values.

This is a great example of the ridiculousness of the alphabet soup movement. The United Methodist Church has a well defined position on this. If you don't like it go out and form your own church. It really is as simple as that. But alphabet soup doesn't want to inclusion they want promotion. The only beliefs you are entitled to are those endorsed by alphabet soup.

When I was a teenager my United Methodist Church sent a lady to Duke Divinity School to become a Methodist minister. Late 90s or early 2000s.

She was very much loved, close friend to my mother. We grew up with her daughters, etc. Husband owned the main golf-course and was a Mason. Everybody knew them.

Her first sermon after graduation she came out as a lesbian from the pulpit. Leaving her husband for her Duke roommate. The aftermath was crazier than I knew to imagine at that point in my life.

quote:

Originally posted by njauto:
It’s shocking that a Church even needs to vote on this.

True!

The Bible provides pretty clear rules for us humans. And there are reasons for those guidelines!

quote:

drive supporters of LGBTQ inclusion to leave America's second-largest Protestant denomination.

If you don't believe in the Word of God then why are you going there anyway?

More church drama.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

drive supporters of LGBTQ inclusion to leave America's second-largest Protestant denomination.

If you don't believe in the Word of God then why are you going there anyway?

I'm with you - I think the Bible is pretty dang clear on God's stance regarding homosexuality. BUT - these people manage to take a few verses (about loving everyone) out of context and apply those to every situation. They don't understand that you can love the person and still think the sin they commit is wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

drive supporters of LGBTQ inclusion to leave America's second-largest Protestant denomination.

If you don't believe in the Word of God then why are you going there anyway?

It’s in the playbook they’ve been running for 55 years:

quote:

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

[snip]"We Africans are not children in need of Western enlightenment when it comes to the church's sexual ethics," the Rev. Jerry Kulah, dean at a Methodist theology school in Liberia, said in a speech over the weekend. "We stand with the global church, not a culturally liberal church elite in the U.S."[snip]

This guy gets it.

How is this even a question among Christian churches? The fact that the vote was 57% instead of 100% is astonishing.

I belong to and am an Elder in a Presbyterian church. This same issue came up a few years ago and met with the same results.

My particular branch believes that we are guided by Scripture. And the Bible is very clear on this.

We also believe in "loving the sinner but hating the sin." Gays, addicts, and sinners of all sorts are welcome in our church. After all, Jesus comported with sinners, not the pure.

"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'” (Mark 2:17)

Just not to the pulpit, where they would be standing hypocritical to the Word.

My childhood church/my parents' church had a big shakeup in the congregation last year over this stuff. Lots of members, some very long-time, left.

The pastor, who has since been promoted to be a district superintendent, is a truly amazing preacher and the most humble and godly man I think I've ever met. At his "retirement" celebration, at least people were able to joke about the awful spot he found himself in: people left because he was too conservative, and people left because he wasn't conservative enough.

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:
It’s in the playbook they’ve been running for 55 years:[/url]

quote:

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

You got it. I would just add, though, that it's been longer than 55 years. Alinsky began his assault on the Catholic Church back in the 40s.

There are 3 viable options on the table but there a dozen or so alternatives.

Option 1: Status Quo
Option 2: Status Quo but enforce the rules
Option 3: Remove all references to sex, sexuality etc... (alphabet soup fav.)

Option 2 is out there because while the rules are quite clear, the church has not admonished or taken action against those conferences, or individual churches, that do not adhere to the rules.

Oddly enough, this is the same church I stopped attending, because it supports abortion...

I see this as a crisis in not understanding the roots of morality. IT is a deep philosophical issue that can't be thoroughly explored here, but I think Dr. Jordan Peterson has some youtube-able lecture that come closest.

Modern man is trying to substitute "reason" as the basis of morality. Morality should not conflict with reason, but reason cannot be the basis of morality, because man can "rationalize" anything (The Holocaust being the most obvious example).

When applying only shallow "reasoning" to homosexuality, it appears simple: everybody should have equal rights"....case closed.

But this ignores the deeper psychological and spiritual basis for why homosexuality has been considered "undesirable..to be discouraged...'immoral' " by every significant culture and religion in human history. It is not just a "Christian taboo". But that takes pages and pages of psychology and moral philosophy to explore, and I don't think anyone has really articulated it in closed form yet. It just doesn't fit a bumper sticker slogan.

Religious people accept the religious reason for considering it a "sin" and non-religious people are eager to reject any religious "taboos" and have been indoctrinated into accepting an Liberal-Academic narratives of amoral "reason".

quote:

Originally posted by fpuhan:
I belong to and am an Elder in a Presbyterian church. This same issue came up a few years ago and met with the same results.

My particular branch believes that we are guided by Scripture. And the Bible is very clear on this.

We also believe in "loving the sinner but hating the sin." Gays, addicts, and sinners of all sorts are welcome in our church. After all, Jesus comported with sinners, not the pure.

"On hearing this, Jesus said to them, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'” (Mark 2:17)

Just not to the pulpit, where they would be standing hypocritical to the Word.

Yes but as you may recall; when the tax collector (a very sinful position of the day) became a disciple, he stopped collecting "taxes" and preached the Word of God after His crucifixion.

When He saved the prostitute and she followed Him, she likewise spread the Word of God after the crucifixion.

Allowing homosexuals, thieves, and murderers into the church (while still "practicing" their sin) to serve in positions or preach is not, IMHO, what Christ meant...

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

drive supporters of LGBTQ inclusion to leave America's second-largest Protestant denomination.

If you don't believe in the Word of God then why are you going there anyway?

I have many gay and lesbian friends, some of which are extremely spiritual and very much believe in the word of God. While I think that every denomination has the right to hold fast to their beliefs I think you could also argue that it is resulting in a decline numbers within their respective churches.

I consider myself a "recover Catholic" and left after not being able to deal with the hypocrisy but I am very spiritual and an minister (online for a friends wedding)...I was asked last summer if I would have any issues doing a same sex marriage and my stance was that I have zero issues with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Oddly enough, this is the same church I stopped attending, because it supports abortion...

FYI - Pro choice is not pro abortion