quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

I understand and believe that you have your right to your beliefs however mine are different and for the sake of this post I am not speaking to the recent late term developments.

So how do late-term abortions differ from early term abortions? What makes one more abhorrent than the other? And what basis are you using to come to your conclusion?

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

I do believe in pro choice and strongly believe that it is nothing anyone truly wants to do.

If there is nothing immoral about it, why would anyone be opposed to it? It isn't about what anyone "wants" or doesn't want. It is about moral or immoral. If you think abortion is moral, then why do you think there is a difference between early-term and late-term abortion?

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

My daughter has volunteered at Planned parenthood for several years in trying to get an outreach program started to educate on birth control as the "just don't have sex" plan is not working.

It works in 100% of the cases where it is tried.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:
Abortions are a small fraction of what what PP offers

Wrong! Abortion is the vast majority of what PP does. And they have said so themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

but, on weekend mornings my little girl will go to clinics and help escort women, many of which are dealing with the hardest decision they will ever have to make,

Again, why is it a hard decision if there is nothing immoral about it? The reason why it is a hard decision is because deep down they know it is wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

past shouting assholes that want to make a bad day even worse. I do strongly believe that abortion should not be a replacement for lazy birth control habits but as a man it is not my choice.

While I agree that shouting at people is not the best way to get someone to change their mind, if I saw a child about to step in front of a bus, I would probably shout to stop them. Understand that when you start viewing this issue from the perspective that life begins at conception, it creates a sense of urgency to stop the murder of the most innocent. That is why people shout. Not because they are a-holes.

We were all unborn babies at one time.

Hey guys, the thread is about same sex marriage, why is it now about abortion?

Here are a few thoughts:

Gay people have always and will always exist. Whether they are welcome in a particular church or faith, is entirely up to that church or faith. In society at large, they should expect the same treatment as everyone else.

Whether homosexuality is immoral, is entirely irrelevant. It should not be given special status, period. It should be allowed to peaceably exist, that's all.

Abortion has long been part of human society, and will continue to exist even if it is banned. Period. People will abort unwanted children. You need only look across culture and history to see this. In many cases this practice was the outright murder of children, not just the unborn.

Safe and effective abortion has a place. Like it or not, the real world actually offers few moral absolutes. The left, and anyone remotely in favor of abortion, needs to admit that it is murder. All abortion is murder. That idea doesn't actually mean there should be no abortion. It's not a chess game or a "gotcha." What everyone should be able to do is confront the reality without lying to themselves.

Late term abortions should only be allowed under very specific circumstances, where there is medical reason behind such a thing. The recent insanity on the left about this issue, is simply that. Allowing late term abortions for any psychological reason is ridiculous, and anything remotely post birth is mind numbingly monstrous.

Insisting that there can be no "pro choice" without also being pro-abortion is ridiculous. Many of these people exist. They in fact are similar to someone who says "I wouldn't own a gun, but I support gun owners rights." You don't win someone over by insisting they hold a position they tell you they do not.

If we all understand that banning guns and taking them away from civilians doesn't actually do anything to solve the problem it espouses to, then we should also understand that the same applies to abortion. The best case scenario is that abortion be safe, legal, and regulated.

The phrase "All (X) should be banned because no one needs that!" Is seldom actually a rational and realistic position. Whether it be said in order to bring the murder rate to 0, or the number of unborn killed to 0, neither of those things will ever actually happen, regardless of the perceived moral righteousness of an idea.

I have been a member of the UMC for nearly 40 years. During that time the UMC has done a lot of things that I don't agree with, but my local church has been very good to me and my family. I have always taken my personal beliefs from the Bible not the UMC. If you want to have your church agree with you 100% of the time, then you must start your own church. YMMV
Rod

When a church strays from the Biblical word it becomes a club.

quote:

Late term abortions should only be allowed under very specific circumstances, where there is medical reason behind such a thing. The recent insanity on the left about this issue, is simply that. Allowing late term abortions for any psychological reason is ridiculous, and anything remotely post birth is mind numbingly monstrous.

FACT: Late-Term Abortions Are Never Medically Necessary
For babies with abnormalities, perinatal hospice is an option. For mothers whose lives are threatened by complications, emergency C-section is an option.
http://thefederalist.com/2019/...medically-necessary/

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Late term abortions should only be allowed under very specific circumstances, where there is medical reason behind such a thing. The recent insanity on the left about this issue, is simply that. Allowing late term abortions for any psychological reason is ridiculous, and anything remotely post birth is mind numbingly monstrous.

FACT: Late-Term Abortions Are Never Medically Necessary
For babies with abnormalities, perinatal hospice is an option. For mothers whose lives are threatened by complications, emergency C-section is an option.
http://thefederalist.com/2019/...medically-necessary/

False. Because it contains the word "Never."

No one can predict every possible situation. What is true is that late term abortions should be exceptionally rare by any standard.

What makes no sense is these bizarre bills put forward by the dems. That shit is indefensible. Killing a successfully born child? Why is this even something that needs to be protested against? Bizarre.

quote:

Originally posted by ukhayes:
When a church strays from the Biblical word it becomes a club.

So everyone since Martin Luther has started a “club”?

quote:

Originally posted by ukhayes:
When a church strays from the Biblical word it becomes a club.

+1

Where's that dang "like" button?

quote:

False. Because it contains the word "Never."
No one can predict every possible situation. What is true is that late term abortions should be exceptionally rare by any standard.

I would agree with you that the word "Never" usually makes a statement false, as does the word "Always". However, it's not my statement. Dr. Mary Davenport is an OBGYN; she has delivered thousands of babies. She deals in high-risk and difficult pregnancies. It's her statement. Read the article if you have time.

quote:

Late-Term Abortion Referrals Can Be Based in Ignorance

Murphy Goodwin, M.D., a distinguished professor of maternal-fetal medicine at the University of Southern California, writes that many abortion referrals based on maternal health situations reflect sheer ignorance from the referring physicians. Typically, he says, they are medical specialists who lack experience treating women with high-risk pregnancies.

Goodwin describes describes multiple cases in which women with severe life threatening conditions—from cardiac problems to cancer—were told that they needed to have abortions. In each situation, physicians were able to find solutions that allowed the mother to bring the baby to 28 weeks, at which point approximately 90 percent of babies survive in neonatal intensive care.

Current law has an unfortunate pro-abortion bias. Physicians face severe legal penalties if they do not inform a mother of all possible risks of continuing a pregnancy. Yet there is no legal penalty for recommending abortion, even with minimal to no justification.

Defending New York’s late-term abortion law as necessary to protect maternal and fetal health is disingenuous, if not downright dishonest. There is no situation in which late abortion is the only, or even the best, solution to a maternal or fetal health crisis.

Advocates of this New York law, and of other states’ permissive late-term abortion laws, must be prepared to defend late abortion for what it is: the unnecessary destruction of a viable baby.

There are alternatives to late abortion that protect women’s health and preserve the life and dignity of the baby. It is imperative that physicians, lawmakers, and citizens be informed of these alternatives, and understand that even in difficult situations, choosing life is always possible.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

False. Because it contains the word "Never."
No one can predict every possible situation. What is true is that late term abortions should be exceptionally rare by any standard.

I would agree with you that the word "Never" usually makes a statement false, as does the word "Always". However, it's not my statement. Dr. Mary Davenport is an OBGYN; she has delivered thousands of babies. She deals in high-risk and difficult pregnancies. It's her statement. Read the article if you have time.

That is still one persons well-informed opinion, and an MD ought to be smart enough to avoid the word "never." Especially in medicine, where so many variables exist. A study or studies involving numerous doctors and cases, where late term abortion can clearly be shown to be unnecessary would be great. If its really true it can be proven on a large scale. By all means such a thing should happen.

But one person, who says "never," I'm skeptical of that in almost any circumstance. Particularly in ones like this where people seem all to eager to legislate over it. Legislation is rarely crafted well.

The late term abortion legislation of late, I wager that it will not survive legal challenge if any of it does become law. I think NY it is already passed?

I really can't understand the logic or motivation of anyone who believes that late term, or whatever they're calling killing the recently born, should be something that is purely optional, or predicated on something so vague as "mental anguish" or whatever term they used there.

At the core of the left are people who insist we disarm civilians because guns kill kids... But abortion doesn't kill kids because babies aren't people? Or something? This is disturbing intellectual dishonesty at best. If someone is unwilling to admit that abortion is murder, I find it difficult to trust anything else that comes out of their mouth.

Right on Rigby470. Right on. Well said.

Murder has existed since before recorded history. That does not mean we have to accept it nor stop working to prevent it nor allow it to change the definition of morality.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:
I understand and believe that you have your right to your beliefs however mine are different and for the sake of this post I am not speaking to the recent late term developments. I do believe in pro choice and strongly believe that it is nothing anyone truly wants to do.

To clarify, in case I'm the only one who read their position on it - its not, merely, that they take the political position of "pro-choice", its that they refuse to condemn it as a sin, and merely class it as an "important decision, not to be made lightly."

quote:

Originally posted by maximus_flavius:

quote:

Originally posted by ukhayes:
When a church strays from the Biblical word it becomes a club.

So everyone since Martin Luther has started a “club”?

In a way... Most folks view denominationalism as absurdity. Methodism, formally, bears a strained connection to Christianity. (Not saying most Methodists aren't Christians - I'm saying John Wesley/some of the mucky-mucks over the years may not have been. See CS Lewis "Mere Christianity" for an erudite and devote explanation of this.)

Regardless of what you think about Steve Turley, I found this vid to be very interesting and worth a watch. Just ignore the initial part where he puffs himself and his new book.



Link to original video: https://youtu.be/4WiktfMIH7U

quote:

Originally posted by maximus_flavius:

quote:

Originally posted by ukhayes:
When a church strays from the Biblical word it becomes a club.

So everyone since Martin Luther has started a “club”?

Being a “true” Christian, yes.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

False. Because it contains the word "Never."
No one can predict every possible situation. What is true is that late term abortions should be exceptionally rare by any standard.

I would agree with you that the word "Never" usually makes a statement false, as does the word "Always". However, it's not my statement. Dr. Mary Davenport is an OBGYN; she has delivered thousands of babies. She deals in high-risk and difficult pregnancies. It's her statement. Read the article if you have time.

That is still one persons well-informed opinion, and an MD ought to be smart enough to avoid the word "never." Especially in medicine, where so many variables exist. A study or studies involving numerous doctors and cases, where late term abortion can clearly be shown to be unnecessary would be great. If its really true it can be proven on a large scale. By all means such a thing should happen.

But one person, who says "never," I'm skeptical of that in almost any circumstance. Particularly in ones like this where people seem all to eager to legislate over it. Legislation is rarely crafted well.

Correct me if wrong, but isn't the basis for the OBGYN saying "never" in the context of a late-term abortion resides in the fact that the process to perform a late term abortion vs a live birth is the same? Either way you must go through the birthing process. What condition would make it medically advantageous to the mother if the fetus were killed prior to delivery?

My wife and I lost a baby in the third trimester. The D&C she underwent was preceded by labor no different than when our live children were born. Therefore, I don't see how killing the fetus prior to delivery provides any benefits to the mother's health. Certainly, killing the child after delivery is pure lunacy.

I do agree that using a word like "never" creates problems when codifying it into legislation.

quote:

What condition would make it medically advantageous to the mother if the fetus were killed prior to delivery?

I think that's the doctor's point.
They shoot the baby with poison 3-4 days before the delivery. The baby dies a slow, painful death and is then delivered. The doctor says this is not medically advantageous to the mother.
Not only that, but it is usually done outside a hospital where complications are much more dangerous to the mother because they are not as well equipped to deal with them.

Agree this thread was not originally about abortion. Back OT, our Senior Pastor, who was one of the 800+ delegates, reported to the congregation this morning. He described the proceedings and the options that had been considered and how the voting came out. He also expressed his opinion that the decision would not have much impact on our particular church, because we are one that welcomes any person to attend and are dedicated to treating them as a child of God. I believe that is the Christian thing to do, but I also don't think Christ intended that his Church should support sinful acts and adopt sinful practices and teachings. Therefore I agree with the prohibition of ordaining and marrying LGBTQ+ people. We have at least 4 such persons singing in our adult Choir and they are loved and cherished as persons. They are not in leadership positions.

flashguy