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delicately calloused |
As far as you......know. You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier | |||
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Truth Wins |
You are correct. And my quoting scripture isn't intended to change your mind. Again, the Christian faith teaches that I can't change your mind. The Christian faith teaches that only God can change your mind, or as he calls it, give you a new heart. Once that occurs, if indeed it occurs for you at all, then you'll understand what I'm talking about. Until then, the unconverted stay blind despite the evidence everywhere. John 6:36: "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe." For some, that's the way it is to death. _____________ "I enter a swamp as a sacred place—a sanctum sanctorum. There is the strength—the marrow of Nature." - Henry David Thoreau | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive.  |
Evidence? Now that's funny. | |||
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Member |
More power to this teacher! ----------------------------------------- Roll Tide! Glock Certified Armorer NRA Certified Firearms Instructor | |||
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| Member |
Quote from MICROPTERUS: “Additionally, we speak of the "missing link." That thing that connects modern man to the archaic forms that came before. He's still missing. And it's not just a human problem. It exists in all of the earth. Fossil records don't usually comport with evolution. If you go from one strata to the next, there are dramatic changes, nothing that could be described as evolutionary. In other words, you don't dig up an anatomically modern bird fossil, then below that a little less modern, then below that a little less modern. No. You dig up a modern bird fossil, and below that is something so different that it leaves one wondering if there was anything in between. Even secular scientists are questing is Darwin's theories hold water. Even they are noticing a lack of evidence that one species evolved into another because there is nothing in between.” I’ve never tried to imbed a YouTube video before. I hope that it works. It is a short video. https://youtu.be/DP53WAkQ5Yc Most scientists don’t even speak of a missing link any more. From Britannica.com: Missing link, hypothetical extinct creature halfway in the evolutionary line between modern human beings and their anthropoid progenitors. In the latter half of the 19th century, a common misinterpretation of Charles Darwin’s work was that humans were lineally descended from existing species of apes. To accept this theory and reconcile it with the hierarchical Great Chain of Being, some fossil ape-man or man-ape seemed necessary in order to complete the chain. Today it is recognized that the relationship of modern humans to the present anthropoid apes (e.g., chimpanzees) is through common ancestors rather than through direct descent. These ancestors have yet to be identified, but ape-hominid divergence may have occurred 6 to 10 million years ago. | |||
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| Freethinker |
There are battalions of logical fallacy straw men in Creation “Science” literature when it discusses what science tells us about everything from biology to physics and cosmology. That makes it easier to claim that scientists don’t really know what they’re talking about. Some of that is due to its proponents’ simply not knowing (or more likely, not understanding*) the current state of the actual science involved, but it’s also commonly due to the intellectual dishonesty of either distorting the science or referring to theories that have long been abandoned by the scientific community as if they were still mainstream views. The “missing link” is a perfect example of the latter, but there are others. There are a lot of well-meaning religious fundamentalists (not only Christians) who just believe what they’re told, but there are a number of manipulators who know, or should know, better, and they’re really no different from the agitators and others who manipulate the ignorant for political and social reasons, and whom we complain about so much here. * The “just a theory” dismissal of things like evolution or the Big Bang origin of the universe are a couple of examples of not understanding what scientists mean when they use the term theory to refer to their work. | |||
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| Would you like a sandwich?  |
A lot of "theories" have been held on to as truth, before being long abandoned. Truth is, science, is not solid as of yet. It continues to "evolve" The wisest among us continue to state "Science" and then when it is disproven, just shrug it off as "growing in our Knowledge". One way or the other, everyone is placing their faith in something... I just can't make sense of placing faith in science, when it is "abandoned" so often. Mainstream or not... | |||
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| No double standards |
Makes sense to me. I believe in a Supreme Being, the Creator. But to me that is not contradictory to Earth's evolution of a few billion years. I don't think our most advanced astrophysics today is even a scratch of His astrophysics. "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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| Member |
Are you speaking just in terms of evolution, or not placing faith in science in general? | |||
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| No double standards |
Not directed to me. But to me, many have full faith and confidence that today's science is "proven fact", beyond question. But lots of such scientific fact of today will be shown to be flawed tomorrow. "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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Funny Man |
But haven’t many spiritual beliefs evolved, split into separate paths or been abandoned along the way as well? The history of human spirituality is as long as you believe humans have inhabited this rock and over time beliefs have been adopted, forgotten, adapted and changed. ______________________________ “I'd like to know why well-educated idiots keep apologizing for lazy and complaining people who think the world owes them a living.” ― John Wayne | |||
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| No double standards |
Agreed. And I still believe in a Creator and a purpose. "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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| Truth Wins |
Two Christmases ago, my niece and her husband were over. Both are engineers, one in deep sea drilling, the other in robotics. Both are Legos geeks. The husband believes the randomness theory and completely rejects intelligent design. While he was off doing something, maybe taking a crap, I made a phallic looking thing out of his piles of Legos and left it for him. When he came back, he laughed and asked who made it. I told him I threw them into the air and they fell together that way. He just chuckled. But it proved a larger point. He has no problem believing that every structure in the universe was a result of randomness, yet he can't believe I can throw legos into the air and that they can coalesce together and fall back down as a lego dick. _____________ "I enter a swamp as a sacred place—a sanctum sanctorum. There is the strength—the marrow of Nature." - Henry David Thoreau | |||
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Member |
The Bible has not changed. Human spirituality is not the same thing as Biblical Christianity. Yes, people have been veering off on their own paths outside of what God has commanded since the beginning, but that is due to human weakness and our sinful desires to please ourselves. Obviously, there are different interpretations of the Bible, a lot of them subtle. I don't believe any one Christian has it all exactly figured out. There are certain things, like the age of the earth, that don't have any bearing on whether or not you are going to heaven or not. There are however certain things that do absolutely matter. With some study I think these things are pretty clear. Believe: John 14:1-4 “1 Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me (Jesus). 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.” Repent: Matthew 4:17 “From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Acts 17:30 “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men all everywhere to repent,….” Confess That Jesus is Lord: Matthew 10:32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is heaven.” Be Baptized: Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” The one who is sincere in these things will seek God's will instead of their own. Do God’s Will: Matthew 7:21 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Put God First: Matthew 10:37 “He who loves father and mother more than me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. The majority of the world will go their own way and choose the wide and easy path that leads to destruction. It doesn't matter how smart a person is, they can and will be deceived if they do not have Christ and the Bible as their foundation. Proverbs 3:5-7 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And he shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil. Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? I know a lot of folks here don't believe in the Bible so they say quoting scripture doesn't help. As a Christian, all I can say is at the end of the day, it isn't about what I say, what matters is what the Bible says. Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong. Do everything in love. - 1 Corinthians 16:13-14 | |||
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Still finding my way |
This scene captures the ONLY plausible way to make the creation story in the bible jive with the way the universe was created. | |||
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| Funny Man |
I was talking about all of time. Back to the days of hunter gatherer societies that believed in magic to early civilizations with multiple deities, etc. This history of man’s evolving beliefs over time and across civilizations. Early Egypt, Aztec and Mayan cultures, the Far East and Middle East all have religious histories that show evolution and change but individually and as a collective history of man. Which was my original point about science and faith. If you discount all science because some science has been abandoned as false do you similarly discard all religion as some have come and gone? ______________________________ “I'd like to know why well-educated idiots keep apologizing for lazy and complaining people who think the world owes them a living.” ― John Wayne | |||
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| Member |
MICROPTERUS - that is not what the theory of evolution asserts. No evolutionary scientist is saying that a complex living structure is made totally randomly. A fully developed human can no more be created from scratch than can (as in your example) a lego ****. Evolutionary changes happen over thousands or millions of years. The changes are incremental. Hence they are evolutionary, not revolutionary. | |||
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| Truth Wins |
Having been a non-believer and then a believer, I'll say this: I don't know what the answers are. A lot of science seems sound, and frankly, I haven't seen much of it that can't be reconciled with the story of creation in the bible. Everything was created in 6 days. But the bible says a thousand years is as a day to God. Who really knows but that the 6 days to God may have been billions of years to us. Timeline the first few lines of Genesis, and there were no earthly days at points in the creation story. So whose days? There are things in the bible that have certainly been confirmed by science. God hangs the earth on nothing when science of the day said it was flat. Circumcise a baby on the 8th day [when the blood of newborn is first able to coagulate]. And at some point in time, historians said the story of Jericho was myth. We now know Jericho was real, it burned as the bible said, its granaries were full of grain when discovered indicating it was destroyed when the bible said it was, and archaeologist have concluded that the walls actually did fall suddenly based on they way they were found when it was discovered. Archeologists have said there is no evidence of an exodus of semitic people from Egypt in the time of the city of Ramses. But move that exodus a few hundred years earlier, then there is all sorts of evidence of a a semitic people living in the delta region of Egypt, with tools and bones as evidence that they were herders, and evidence leading out of Egypt that there was a mass movement of those people. For many years historians said King David was fictitious. Of course until they found a stone from that era referencing King David. And just what is that animal in the book of Job 40:15-17? "Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you. He feeds on grass like an ox. See the strength of his loins and the power in the muscles of his belly. His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are tightly knit." But ultimately, it doesn't matter to me what the answers to those questions are. The bible isn't a history book, except to this extent: it's the history of God's plan for the depemption of his people. We can have different interpretations about a lot of thing in the bible that aren't central to Christ. Christ is the central theme of the bible, not the behemoth. I'll learn the answers to all the questions I ever had once I'm dead - I resolutely believe that. I also believe that the answers I had, and the answers science has provided, won't measure up to the glorious incomprehensible truths that will be revealed. _____________ "I enter a swamp as a sacred place—a sanctum sanctorum. There is the strength—the marrow of Nature." - Henry David Thoreau | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine  |
It is easy for a believer to think of their religion as ageless and immutable, because religion changes so slowly that no living person can really have a gut-level understanding of those changes. I was raised a Presbyterian, and a Presbyterian in 1960 and a Presbyterian now are basically the same, and that goes back hundreds of years. We can't remember what early Christianity was like - it was 1900 years ago. We certainly can't remember what pre-Christian religions were like, there are damn few of them even left around any more. Religion seems unchanging and immutable, which is comforting and stable, but it isn't really so. That science is now capable of changing understanding very quickly makes it seem "wrong" somehow, or is, at least unsettling, but it is just that our pace of learning has accelerated. There is a lot of evidence that science is right, even though it is called a theory, and that some aspects may change as more is learned. For example, we are a long way from fully understanding physics - including all the ramifications of even something as "settled" as the theory of relativity, never mind quantum mechanics. But those theories allow us to build working GPS systems, which is a pretty good indication we are on the right track. Science used to change more slowly. From Aristotle to the time of Blaise Pascal, science (then called natural philosophy) started with a study of Aristotle, who was still the basis of much that humans thought about the natural world. After that, though, the state of what we know began to accelerate at a huge rate. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| Truth Wins |
But it started somewhere. And if no one put them in order, how do they start but randomly? For anything to evolve, there must be some information telling it to evolve. To comprehend that information, there must be some intelligence. How does a non-living structure, with no intelligence capable of interpreting information, evolve into a living structure with that itelligence? To get bigger, how did a cell ever know to replicate itself? In my view there must be an intelligent designer. Because I think it is impossible to get from randomness to order. With my Lego dick example: that Lego dick was clearly designed. And so was the chair he was sitting in when he told me that dick didn't put itself together. Its ordered existence was proof that it had a creator. So he sat on that chair, on a floor, on a foundation, on the ground, on the earth's crust, floating on a ball of magma, forming a sphere, orbiting a star, neither too close nor too far, riding around on the arm of a galaxy, among countless other galaxies. And his belief in a creator stopped at the foundation of the house. I think that's weird. A Lego dick is ordered enough to prove that it had a creator but the human eyeball isn't? _____________ "I enter a swamp as a sacred place—a sanctum sanctorum. There is the strength—the marrow of Nature." - Henry David Thoreau | |||
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