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Truth Wins
Picture of Micropterus
posted January 04, 2021 03:00 PMHide Post
Evolution, the Big Bang, and many others are just theories.

With respect to evolution: generally things cannot evolve into something more complex. Nothing in science has shown that it can. Things can devolve, or random changes can occur, but without some innate "intelligence," there is no way for something to know to evolve up.

Additionally, we speak of the "missing link." That thing that connects modern man to the archaic forms that came before. He's still missing. And it's not just a human problem. It exists in all of the earth. Fossil records don't usually comport with evolution. If you go from one strata to the next, there are dramatic changes, nothing that could be described as evolutionary. In other words, you don't dig up an anatomically modern bird fossil, then below that a little less modern, then below that a little less modern. No. You dig up a modern bird fossil, and below that is something so different that it leaves one wondering if there was anything in between. Even secular scientists are questing is Darwin's theories hold water. Even they are noticing a lack of evidence that one species evolved into another because there is nothing in between.

They talk about man evolving from apes, and what the last common ancestor was. That's a simple question compared to mine. I want to know what was the last common ancestor of man and an oak tree? They can't begin to answer that.

As for the Big Bang. Secular scientists are questioning that, as well. If the universe exploded from a microdot dense enough to contain all the matter in the universe, then where did that dot come from? And after this long, why isn't universal expansion slowing? It's not, it's actually speeding up. That's inconsistent with the current theories about the Big Bang.

All of it is theory. Not terribly long ago, man thought the earth was flat. That was settled science. Before that, they thought it was flat, held up on the backs of elephants which were standing on a giant turtle. That was settled science at the same time the bible said that God "Hangs the earth on nothing."

If complete knowledge of the mysteries of the universe was a line a million miles long, what we know is about a millimeter of that. Yet we scoff at anyone who says there is intelligent design behind it all. In many cases, that seems to be the only plausible explanation.


_____________
"I enter a swamp as a sacred place—a sanctum sanctorum. There is the strength—the marrow of Nature." - Henry David Thoreau
 
Posts: 4285 | Location: In The Swamp | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No double standards
posted January 04, 2021 03:01 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by kimber1911:

None here know factually the age of the earth.
We all have theories.
We all have been taught theories.
Most of the theories have been taught to us as factual which is a disservice to “science”.



This is a weak argument, which plays on a misunderstanding about what a theory is. It is true that these are all theories, but a billions of year old universe theory is well-supported by evidence and observation of the natural world.. . .


And as I commented earlier from an acclaimed scientist, how many scientific "facts" of 50 years ago do we laugh at today. And how many scientific "facts" today will we laugh at in 50 years from now.

In the late 1960's Acclaimed Stanford Univ Scientist Paul Ehrlich warned us that within 10 years a Billion people would starve to death. And every 10 years he claims he was correct and updates his foretold calamity to the next 10 years. I guess I smile as my former neighbor was a UC Berkeley scientist who would often tell me of (politically correct) "proven science".

Sidenote to Micropterus.

My UC Berkeley neighbor once told me that, given enough time, without any intelligent input, a fully loaded, piloted, fueled, Boeing 737 could form itself in the street between us, then take off for Hawaii - IF the forces and elements were "destined" to do so. I asked him what destiny was in that context, he didn't have an answer. Smile




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 30668 | Location: UT | Registered: November 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Truth Wins
Picture of Micropterus
posted January 04, 2021 03:03 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by tacfoley:
I believe that we should let micropterus and kimber1911 get on with this thread without the rest of us. They have already proven that two well-educated Christians can't agree about a fundamental tenet of Christianity and have, between them, totally realigned this thread into one not unlike that story written about by Dean Jonathan Swift many years ago, where two countries were ready to go to war about the facts that one preferred to eat their boiled eggs pointy end up, and the other one didn't.


Well, that's a strange comment. I haven't addressed Kimber's comment. And he certainly wasn't rude in what he addressed to me.


_____________
"I enter a swamp as a sacred place—a sanctum sanctorum. There is the strength—the marrow of Nature." - Henry David Thoreau
 
Posts: 4285 | Location: In The Swamp | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
delicately calloused
Picture of darthfuster
posted January 04, 2021 04:23 PMHide Post
Occasionally when some generally known person passes away I'll state, "Now he/she knows". This is why. When Hitchens, a noted intellectual who convincingly denounced religion for years, died in 2011, I said under my breath, "Now he knows". This is not to arrogantly say that I knew more or better than he. I called my belief faith. He called his science. Neither one of us knew for sure until he passed. Now he knows what is there. I'll have my turn soon enough. Then I'll know.



You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier
 
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Void Where Prohibited
Picture of WaterburyBob
posted January 04, 2021 04:38 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by darthfuster:
Occasionally when some generally known person passes away I'll state, "Now he/she knows". This is why. When Hitchens, a noted intellectual who convincingly denounced religion for years, died in 2011, I said under my breath, "Now he knows". This is not to arrogantly say that I knew more or better than he. I called my belief faith. He called his science. Neither one of us knew for sure until he passed. Now he knows what is there. I'll have my turn soon enough. Then I'll know.

I will only say that if the end is simply the end of existence, then he knows nothing. And if such is the case, none of us will.



"If Gun Control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome" - Cam Edwards
 
Posts: 16747 | Location: Under the Boot of Tyranny in Connectistan | Registered: February 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of 08 Cayenne
posted January 04, 2021 04:51 PMHide Post
This is exactly correct, I died for a couple minutes, went from awake and coherent to dead almost instantly. No lights, no staircase, didn't see any of my previous pets... Actually I had no idea I died until I was brought back and they told me. For me it was simply the end of existence, as stated. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and was an alter boy.

quote:
Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
quote:
Originally posted by darthfuster:
Occasionally when some generally known person passes away I'll state, "Now he/she knows". This is why. When Hitchens, a noted intellectual who convincingly denounced religion for years, died in 2011, I said under my breath, "Now he knows". This is not to arrogantly say that I knew more or better than he. I called my belief faith. He called his science. Neither one of us knew for sure until he passed. Now he knows what is there. I'll have my turn soon enough. Then I'll know.

I will only say that if the end is simply the end of existence, then he knows nothing. And if such is the case, none of us will.
 
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No double standards
posted January 04, 2021 04:51 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by WaterburyBob:. . . I will only say that if the end is simply the end of existence, then he knows nothing. And if such is the case, none of us will.


I have a good friend who believes there is no afterlife, when we die our bodies become food for the worms. I believe the opposite. I told him, if he's right, then when we die, neither will know it. But if I am right, after we die, I will be able to wake up every morning and say "I told you so".




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 30668 | Location: UT | Registered: November 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fortified with Sleestak
Picture of thunderson
posted January 04, 2021 04:58 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by darthfuster:
..........I called my belief faith. He called his science. Neither one of us knew for sure until he passed. Now he knows what is there. I'll have my turn soon enough. Then I'll know.


I believe this also. I also believe that you both may not know the same truth. My personal belief is that there is no eternal torment for the soul, but a destruction. Those that believe are seated with Christ. Those souls who reject him are destroyed. Those who say there is no God may be entirely right in the truth as they find it. Likewise those who do believe in God may find His truth.



I have the heart of a lion.......and a lifetime ban from the Toronto Zoo.- Unknown
 
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Void Where Prohibited
Picture of WaterburyBob
posted January 04, 2021 05:12 PMHide Post
This thread is evolving into one of theology ...

It just seems so contradictory to me. We are put here with an extremely limited ability to comprehend existence.
Then we are given all the religious teachings of forgiveness and a loving and forgiving God, yet if we don't believe 'correctly', we are punished?
No chance to be forgiven for that? Just doesn't seem right.



"If Gun Control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome" - Cam Edwards
 
Posts: 16747 | Location: Under the Boot of Tyranny in Connectistan | Registered: February 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fortified with Sleestak
Picture of thunderson
posted January 04, 2021 05:20 PMHide Post
^ Some believe in punishment. Others like myself do not. I believe you find him or you don't. I reject wholeheartedly in the concept that God is waiting to smack us on the head with a hammer. I believe he is waiting for us to have a relationship with him. The choice is ours.



I have the heart of a lion.......and a lifetime ban from the Toronto Zoo.- Unknown
 
Posts: 5371 | Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA | Registered: November 05, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Void Where Prohibited
Picture of WaterburyBob
posted January 04, 2021 05:22 PMHide Post
You don't consider your soul being destroyed as a punishment?



"If Gun Control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome" - Cam Edwards
 
Posts: 16747 | Location: Under the Boot of Tyranny in Connectistan | Registered: February 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
אַרְיֵה
Picture of V-Tail
posted January 04, 2021 05:25 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Micropterus:

I like to think that this thread evolved into something else.
Big Grin



הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים
 
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Fortified with Sleestak
Picture of thunderson
posted January 04, 2021 05:31 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
You don't consider your soul being destroyed as a punishment?


No I don't. Why would it be a punishment? If I chose not to believe in God and when I died there was nothing, how is that punishment?

Why would I believe in something like a soul and not believe in God at the same time?



I have the heart of a lion.......and a lifetime ban from the Toronto Zoo.- Unknown
 
Posts: 5371 | Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA | Registered: November 05, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Void Where Prohibited
Picture of WaterburyBob
posted January 04, 2021 05:36 PMHide Post
I'm just trying to understand.
It seems to me it's believe correctly = be with God for eternity = reward vs. Don't believe it quite right = end of existence = punishment.
I believe in a creator, but I believe religion was created by man and therefore not perfect and not entirely accurate.



"If Gun Control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome" - Cam Edwards
 
Posts: 16747 | Location: Under the Boot of Tyranny in Connectistan | Registered: February 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted January 04, 2021 05:36 PMHide Post
“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
— Mark Twain
 
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Member
Picture of konata88
posted January 04, 2021 05:41 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
— Mark Twain


May not be true depending on one's beliefs - could've been reincarnated millions of times before the life in which he wrote that quote. Smile

(note: not serious. don't flame me back)




"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
"A government is just a body of people, usually, notably, ungoverned." Shepherd Book
 
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Fortified with Sleestak
Picture of thunderson
posted January 04, 2021 05:55 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
I'm just trying to understand.
It seems to me it's believe correctly = be with God for eternity = reward vs. Don't believe it quite right = end of existence = punishment.


From a Christian standpoint(as I believe, I do not speak for all Christians) it is not a quid pro quo. We live in a fallen world and as such we are fallen ourselves. Belief in Christ is enough. Our salvation comes through Grace and NOT BY WORKS. This is the fairness of God that is often overlooked. God also allows us to make our own choices. This is the other fairness of God that is often overlooked.

quote:
I believe in a creator, but I believe religion was created by man and therefore not perfect and not entirely accurate.


Me too to a degree.



I have the heart of a lion.......and a lifetime ban from the Toronto Zoo.- Unknown
 
Posts: 5371 | Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA | Registered: November 05, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Void Where Prohibited
Picture of WaterburyBob
posted January 04, 2021 05:59 PMHide Post
Thank you for that explanation. The choice part is where I get lost.
We are put here with minimal knowledge and are allowed little more.
It does not speak to fairness to me to be judged on choices made with a grossly inferior foundation.



"If Gun Control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome" - Cam Edwards
 
Posts: 16747 | Location: Under the Boot of Tyranny in Connectistan | Registered: February 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted January 04, 2021 06:07 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Micropterus:
To Sigfreund


I am finally responding because I appreciated the time and trouble you took for your post and did not want you to believe I just ignored it.

Please keep in mind, though, that quoting a Bible itself to demonstrate that it was inspired by God is not compelling reasoning. It is also very unlikely that quoting Scripture will change the minds of very many of us who believe that it was not supernaturally inspired, but was rather the mundane product of mortal men who wrote it for their own personal and societal purposes.

But thank you for explaining your position.




6.4/93.6

“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 48020 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fortified with Sleestak
Picture of thunderson
posted January 04, 2021 06:15 PMHide Post
You're welcome. I don't pretend to know all the answers and I don't profess authority. This is why I preface most of my statements with "I believe".

Choice is all around us. We make choices in everything. I believe that perfection is not required in these choices. I believe the import is the Spirit of the Law, not the letter. I also believe that there was only one perfect being on this planet, and we nailed him to a tree.



I have the heart of a lion.......and a lifetime ban from the Toronto Zoo.- Unknown
 
Posts: 5371 | Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA | Registered: November 05, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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