quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Yea that’s bullshit. Apple doesn’t open phones for a warrant as far as I know.

Valid warrant or not, the best business stance is to stay the fuck out of it. You want the combo? Then get a warrant for Liberty's records.

Bad company policy in my mind.

My understanding is Apple doesn’t have the capability to open phones.

Need more info but it sounds like it didn't involve Liberty per se.

Can Liberty be compelled via warrant directed at someone else to open their safe for the FBI to execute the warrant? Not unless the warrant specifically says so. Apple can't be compelled via someone else's warrant to unlock a phone.

The government can otherwise open the safe through other means.

They stepped in it, someone called them out and that's why we got the tweet, or, they are at least warning customers that with a valid warrant their legal team has advised Liberty to comply, bad advise, but in lieu of hiring council to defend against FBI action against Liberty, and in this climate anyone in firearm industry is probably very concerned over Federal retaliation.

Still, they should have said company policy is we don't get involved in customers legal issues, if you wish to get a court order compelling us to open the safe then we can comply.

The later would have sold more safes than they could make, now, they'll have to work to gain trust.

quote:

Need more info but it sounds like it didn't involve Liberty per se.

It didn't involve Liberty at all, but they certainly didn't hesitate to involve themselves.

A warrant basically lists a person/place/thing to be searched or seized. It probably listed the safe. That's one of the reasons that if the police call me to open a safe I make them verify that the safe is mentioned. If so, they can legally open the safe via any method they prefer, including hiring somebody to do it.

That warrant would not have any legal bearing the safe manufacturer, retailer, or anybody else associated with it. Even the safe's owner is under no obligation to provide them with the combination.

I'd say Liberty stepped in it pretty good here.

An excellent advertisement for mechanical locks. Oh, the feds will still get in, of course, but that's beside the point.

Liberty (HA!) may try to rationalize this, but the warrant was not served on that company and they had neither the right nor the obligation to give the FBI any information.

Liberty Safe is as dead to me as Benchmade Knives.

>>customerservice@libertysafe.com<<

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
An excellent advertisement for mechanical locks.

I believe Liberty (and other safe manufacturers?) often keep a record of the combinations with which their safes ship?

Excellent advertisement for electronic locks: Easier to change the combinations

Mechanical lock combinations can be changed, and there is no manufacturer's secret bypass code embedded in the non-existent firmware.

>>customerservice@libertysafe.com<<

Y'all might want to read the part about a valid search warrant. If you respect the 2A, you must respect ALL of the law, even the parts you don't like.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Mechanical lock combinations can be changed, and there is no manufacturer's secret bypass code embedded in the non-existent firmware.

>>customerservice@libertysafe.com<<

Agreed, the end user can change a mechanical lock combo, and there isn't a back door into the safe. If you don't change the combination, well... So if the warrant wasn't served to Liberty, what laws are we not "respecting"?

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
Y'all might want to read the part about a valid search warrant. If you respect the 2A, you must respect ALL of the law, even the parts you don't like.

I don't respect the uneven, unequal application of the law. There's also a subtle difference between the constitution enumerating our God-given rights and the laws our government has passed in the interim that often enough infringe on them.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
Y'all might want to read the part about a valid search warrant. If you respect the 2A, you must respect ALL of the law, even the parts you don't like.

Hmmm, actually I think you might want to re-read the statement in the OP a little more closely.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
Y'all might want to read the part about a valid search warrant. If you respect the 2A, you must respect ALL of the law, even the parts you don't like.

This is not a well-reasoned comment.


Suppose there's a valid arrest warrant for suspect A. They show up at your house with only the arrest warrant and not a search warrant to enter your house to search for A.

Are they allowed to enter your house without your consent or a search warrant? No. The arrest warrant for A does not give them the carte blanche right to search any property where they think they can find A. They can swear out an affidavit for a search warrant if they want.

So if you respect their arrest warrant for A, does that mean you must give them access to your house? It doesn't. It has nothing to do with respect but rather it's your rights that are paramount.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

Liberty Safe is as dead to me...


>>customerservice@libertysafe.com<<

To me too, just sent them an email.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
Y'all might want to read the part about a valid search warrant. If you respect the 2A, you must respect ALL of the law, even the parts you don't like.

The warrant may have been valid, but I don't think that compels someone not listed on the warrant to do anything. It's not their property.

I think Liberty should have stayed out of it until they got a subpoena.

Now, if they got a subpoena from the criminal court to provide the backup code to open the safe, would that be different? It's common knowledge there are "master codes" for alarm systems and safes. If you had the device's model number and serial number, I would suspect you could subpoena the manufacturer for the master code.

I'm not a lawyer at all, but there is a difference between warrants and subpoenas.

• A subpoena compels action by an individual or entity
  
• A warrant authorizes action by a legal authority.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
Y'all might want to read the part about a valid search warrant.

And you might want to give this a bit more thought, because the warrant wasn't served on this safe company.

I don't see anywhere that states it is a gun safe, or that it contains guns. So we don't know what the FBI wants.

Liberty, of course, makes gun safes, and in their statement, they mention their support of 2A rights, so it is being assumed it's a gun safe. The tweet was their effort to head "bad press" off at the pass.

I would think that if the FBI has a warrant to search a premises, they're allowed to search it, and remove evidence pertaining to the waarant. Woudn't a second warrant be required for the safe itself? Or, what if a person's safe is not located at (or in) their home? Would a search warrant cover that?

I'm surprised something like this has not been adjudicated somewhere before.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
Y'all might want to read the part about a valid search warrant. If you respect the 2A, you must respect ALL of the law, even the parts you don't like.

Nonsense. This is the equivalent of the state showing up at your door with a warrant for you then asking your neighbor for the spare key he holds. Liberty may have saved the guy a destroyed safe but they put their nose where it doesn’t belong. They shouldn’t give up the code unless compelled. Asked isn’t compelled. They stepped in it and are pussy footing around their mistake.

quote:

Woudn't a second warrant be required for the safe itself?

It would generally be listed on the initial warrant describing what they are searching/seizing.

quote:

Or, what if a person's safe is not located at (or in) their home?

I encountered that fairly recently. That's an entirely new warrant.

quote:

I'm surprised something like this has not been adjudicated somewhere before.

4th Amendment, and there's a ton of case law and precedents regarding general warrants.

Boot licking mother effers!
I expect this behavior on the part of the corrupt gov but the fudd'ery from liberty should not go unpunished.