quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
I will say, that with the advent of G20s, and G21s, I’m not sure a 9MM offers much, if someone can shoot those platforms well.

And what, if anything, do you carry?

It's easy to sit here and post about carrying a fully-loaded, full-size Glock 45 or 10mm. It's a different ballgame actually doing it. Spare magazines, too. That stuff ain't featherweight or compact. Don't even get me started on the expense.

Mas, to me, was spot on. My ears perked up at the three-minute mark when mentioning the body armor issue. It's not just the good guys wearing it today. Capacity; several years back I attended a training session taught by a uniformed Federal officer. Someone asked him why he had four magazines on his Batbelt. Answer: he'd been in a fight or two before and wished he had more mags.

As things seem to be unraveling more and more, when carrying I now have two spares on me not just one 15 or 17 rounder.

Mea culpa. I didn’t mean to imply that people should carry full size guns.

I usually just carry a J frame. (Sometimes an FN 5.7 - which is large, but very light.)

When I worked next door to a drug stash warehouse, and was much younger, I carried G20s.

We don’t worry about it at the new plant, nearly as much. If stuff is weird, we go back to carrying G20s/my brother carries 21s.

The biggest thing there, is having a retention holster, to be sure it doesn’t pop out while working on a machine, etc if one of us is working at a weird hour alone, etc.

But, part of the reason we did carry G21s, is they really aren’t all that much larger than a G19.

The second video touched covered most of the thoughts that occur to me.

Even if capacity limited by kommunist laws, it makes sense to carry a spare magazine as the magazine is often implicated in issues with semiautomatic pistols.

If one stuck behind kommunist walls had the benefit of Freedom Week (all hail Saint Benitez) it’s really hard to think of a reason that the at least two magazines that one carries shouldn’t at least be normal capacity, if not highest flush-fit capacity, and perhaps even extended magazine(s) for the spare(s).

Realistically, in my life the odds are vanishingly small that I will ever need to present a firearm, much less fire it, at all. So why carry at all? Because vanishingly small is not the same as zero, and besides that, I don’t have a crystal ball, much less a functioning one.

I choose to take responsibility for the safety of my family and myself. Having made that decision, it seems silly to not be as prepared as possible for whatever I can be prepared for, regardless of any statistics, real or more likely made up Fuddlore horse feces.

The only times you have too much ammo are when you are drowning or on fire.

Your average Joe on the street doesn't have back up to call who will arrive and assist, so they arguably have a greater justification for full capacity magazines than police officers do.

Yes, I do carry an extra mag as a matter of fact I carry two.

Who am I to disagree with Massad Ayoob in which I consider to be the leading authority on the subject.

In life transition is inevitable.

I never needed to carry a gun, I never knew anyone who did,

Transition started in L.A. ,
I knew about revolvers so that's what I carried.

Then in AZ I transitioned to a semi auto,

Two years later I transitioned to carrying a spare magazine.

Now ,
I am considering a folding carbine in a mandolin case.

( With a spare magazine)

Today’s carry

G26 + 2 spare magazines (All mags with 2 round extensions) 37 rounds total. Why 2 spare mags? I’m an old guy and might just fumble a reload.

Knife
Spray
Kubaton
Flashlight

Clothing. Jeans and a hoodie.
Call me crazy...

Silent

Responding to the comments so far, including those arising from my lack of sufficient explanation of my original points, and also after reading everything here that I might be wrong, in particular by the facts discussed by Mas:

Q) So, you don't agree with civilians carrying hi-cap / extra-cap self defense pistols?
A) No I don't think that at all. I was thinking why the hell should I need so many rounds. But after hearing the comments and reflecting on the details Mas discussed, that position may be old fashioned.

Q) Training, training, training.
A) Agreed. As in good training under stress, you would use the appropriate number of bullets regardless of the amount you're carrying.

Q) Btw, you don't need to face a "mob" to need extra ammo. Just one thug with an AR pistol is enough to change your mind.
A) Good point. Really good point.

Q) These days the bad guys run in groups. Video of these hoards are all over the internet. Better to have it and not need it.
A) Same anwer again. Very good point.

Q) The thugs around here like to gang up and attack in groups.
A) I'm seeing that on video. Good point, as things heat up, it's a matter of time for some, but noone knows who they are.

Q) Am I understanding your logic that if someone carries a standard cap magazine, hi capacity in your words, that automatically means they'll pray and spray?
A) Maybe. But that could be the product of lack of training, particularly training under stress.

Q) Do you carry spare magazines?
A) Yes, unless it's a pocket revolver. I don't have the dexterity or practice to reload a revolver under stress, it's not like refreshing a pistol magazine.

Q) The various points about lack of data regarding less than x shots is less than x seconds.
A) I always believed this. Apparently it was never true, or is less true these days given the new nature of crime.

Q) Could be a number of people in a group or it could be you in your first high stress situation missing shots or worse, you getting wounded.
A) Never thought about that. The older I get the more likely that could happen.

Q) Its a matter of risk assessment for me. And I can change if the risk increases. Which, inevitably, it will given the direction we are moving as a society.
A) Good point, I hear these things, but never put it all together.

Q) My acquaintence emptied his revolver into the guy before the guy quit, DRT. He did not have a reload.
A) Good point. He probably considered himself lucky the perp folded.

Q) Deputy proceeded to shoot 28 times before a CNS hit crumpled him up.
A) Damn. My 5 shot roscoe would have been bad in that situation.

Q) I would always prefer options. More ammo is more options. And yes carrying more ammo has absolutely nothing to do with spray and pray.
A) Great summary about options. I have lots of emer meds with me at all times, appears my lightweight configuration is wanting.

Q) One thing they all had in common is at one time or the other is at they will fail... it's a fact of life. It may a minor malfunction or a major but it will happen. It's happened to me more than once.
A) Good point. I don't shoot IDPA, but since you guys with the best guns DO have failures under stress, it's incumbent on us to assume the same under more life-and-death type stress.

Q) magazines do get dropped
A) Good point. I drop shit more than I used to, it's a thing.

Q) I think the OP is so wrong here that I hope he is just trolling us and not serious.
A) Nope, I'm not a troller. But I do like to roll around in a topic, it's how I learn since my imagination isn't that great.

Q) What do you mean by "high capacity" magazines?
A) I was comparing Mas' recommendations to my older style guns, with 5, 6, and 7 rounds, like a P220. I thought that was a quitessential SD piece. Times have changed.

Q) In a backup pistol, low capacity is often necessary, but a primary, I want at least fifteen rounds in the pistol.
A) Coming from you Para, I'm hearing it. That's an eye opener considering everything else discussed so far.

Q) My biggest worry isn't one idiot. It's 4 idiots in a car, either behind me, or in front of me, that do something stupid. All of s sudden, the 938 or 1911 with 7 or 8+1 doesn't seem like such a good idea, given that even cops don't hit that many of their shots percentage wise. 2 shots per assailant for incapacity isn't much in a dynamic environment, and I don't want to be screwing around with a reload while pookie is pumping 9s into me.
A) Well damn. I would have never imagined that scenario, like I said, I lack imagination, living in the past. Great point.

Q) The world has changed, gentlemen.
A) Yes it has, I stand corrected.

Q) “the only time there is such thing as too much ammo is while swimming or on fire.”
A) or swimming WHILE on fire. fixed it.

Q) That stuff ain't featherweight or compact. Don't even get me started on the expense.
A) Para has a good point. I think this is one of my concerns in my original post, UNLESS I was in a very bad environment, and typically I don't think I am, but the times have changed.

Q) it's not just the good guys wearing it today.
A) Never thought about that. That sucks.

Q) Realistically, in my life the odds are vanishingly small that I will ever need to present a firearm
A) I was thinking the same thing until I read all the comments and information presented so far.

Q) What's Fuddlore.
A) I just looked it up. I may be really behind the times. I'll check it out, I may be one of them and didn't know it. I hate it when that happens.

Q) Who am I to disagree with Massad Ayoob in which I consider to be the leading authority on the subject.
A) Probably the best point so far, I love Mas. He's the real deal on multiple fronts, and for a long time on all of them.

Q) In life transition is inevitable....
A) Yea that's squarely on me, life passes me by all the time. Seems like there is a better way to process it than by looking in the rear view mirror.

IN SUMMARY, it looks like I'm way behind the times.

Thanks Everyone, very much.

I hope we can keep this going, the more ideas I hear the better I'll be able to fix my standard load out.

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:
Q) Do you carry spare magazines?
A) Yes, unless it's a pocket revolver. I don't have the dexterity or practice to reload a revolver under stress, it's not like refreshing a pistol magazine.

Then, why in the world would you question extra capacity in the pistol?

You are only going to need it (extra ammo) when you need it which is obviously and hopefully never...
most of the world, sheeple out there, fully believe we are crazy....

I'm constantly reminded of the 70+ year old black man here in S.C. for probably close to 50 years slept with a revolver under his pillow. I'm sure his family thought him totally paranoid... until a few years back he woke up in the middle of the night to a noise and there was a guy standing over him with a pry bar...... guess who they carried out of the house in a bag?

Carrying of any kind, type, caliber and magazine capacity is always going to be a compromise. Personally I have scaled down to 8 rounds with one in the chamber but I have and always carry an extra magazine and have one of those on me even when I'm not carrying....

You carry an extra mag even when you are not carrying a gun?

Impromptu kubaton.

quote:

Originally posted by Tuckerrnr1:
Impromptu kubaton.

I carry a Glock 17 on each hip. In case my shoulder gets blown out. Again.

(You have to be an old timer here to get that reference )

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
You carry an extra mag even when you are not carrying a gun?

Yep, I carry several things with me always... my wallet, a Swiss army knife, (rule #9) an extra magazine for my Sig P239 and nitroglycerin pills.
Actually, sometimes I forget my wallet......

quote:

Originally posted by wolfe 21:
I don't carry a gun. Never felt the need in my literal one stop light town.

A loose crazed pitbull can ruin your day/life even in a one stop light town. Even if no dangerous animals around, I hope you no one in your little town is one can short of a sixpack.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:
Q) Do you carry spare magazines?
A) Yes, unless it's a pocket revolver. I don't have the dexterity or practice to reload a revolver under stress, it's not like refreshing a pistol magazine.

Then, why in the world would you question extra capacity in the pistol?

The reason is because of the comparative round count between my heavy load out, or my 5 shot pocket revolver, compared to what other civilian CC guys are carrying now. The P220 with one mag in the piece and one in the pipe, plus two spare mags on the hip, is 22 rounds total. After Mas' video and hearing from you guys I knew the little roscoe was pushing it, but I thought 22 rounds of P220 was pretty acceptable. Based on what I'm learning it's looking more like 17 round mags, or 52 rounds total with one in the gun and two on the hip. So I'm comparing my (non-bug) Bug piece of 5 rounds, to my heavy setup of 22 rounds, with the current opinion here of carrying up to 52 rounds with 17 round mags. So comparing my 5 and 22 round setups with other guys' minimum 50+ round systems, I'm thinking what the heck. A previous conversation along these lines may have have concluded that 22 rounds of 45 ACP was decent enough for a really out of the ordinary type emergency scenario. So it's a wake up call for me personally, a shock to the old system. That's basically it. I'm still digesting and coming to terms with it. But I'm thankful for the discussion, the usual quorum of wisdom on the Sigform is beneficial, perhaps life saving for anyone here still relying on a 5 shot pea shooter, though we will never know who or where, which is always the way it is.

I don't know why you would voluntarily limit your options. Cost can't be an issue. Does anyone only have one 20 round box of HD ammo? Weight isn't that much more too. One round of 124 grain JHP weighs about .441 oz. Seventeen rounds is 7.497 oz. Thirty- five rounds (two seventeen round mags plus one chambered) is 14.994 oz. Is 7.5 oz really that big a difference? For CCW, I'd say no.


For me, my load weight has increased from 7.497 oz to 13.671 oz an inconsequential difference but a big change in options if needed.

Complacency is a difficult habit to break, especially if a spouse isn't on board with heavier load outs for routine trips.

With as crazy as things have gotten, it makes sense to carry as much as you can conceal and use effectively. It is part of the reason I have gotten away from j-frames entirely. I just can't reload them fast enough for it to make sense any longer.

I try to base my carry selection on my risk assessment of the environment and balance it with the other tasks or goals that I have in the situation. For example, when I run in the morning I carry a J-Frame because I rarely see anyone, much less anyone determined to do me harm, and running several miles with a full-size duty gun and extra mags would suck. I also often carry a P245 off-duty, with a reload, because it's comfortable, I'm confident with it, and I'm not going looking for trouble. If I'm going to work or some heavily populated urban center, or even church (I'm kinda the "security team"), I'll often take a full or carry sized P320 with a dot.

I never choose the smaller guns because I want less ammo...I'm making a measured compromise based on my assessment of the situation.