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Originally posted by parabellum:

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Originally posted by gpbst3:
However he had enough confidence to put himself inside his own invention.

"Confidence" is not the word which comes to mind.

Link

Predatory' Titanic sub CEO Stockton Rush was scouting around for rich clients to endorse his doomed expedition because he was struggling to make money on his 'monstrosity' vessel, says expert

Oceangate CEO Stockton Rush was on a 'predatory' mission to find wealthy clients to endorse his submersible's deep sea trips to the Titanic, industry leaders claimed last night.

Mr Rush perished on board the Titan last Sunday along with his four passengers when the vessel imploded while en route to the Atlantic seabed.

Insiders say the OceanGate boss was having difficulty finding rich customers to make the operation profitable. He also used his powers of persuasion to stop clients being steered away on safety grounds by respected figures within the exploration community, the Times reports.

Patrick Lahey, president of Triton submarines, told the newspaper: 'He could even convince someone who knew and understood the risks... it was really quite predatory.'

Mr Lahey has experience at all levels in the manufacturing of deep sea vessels and was a close friend of Mr Rush's second mate Paul-Henri 'PH' Nargeolet, 73, a skilled mariner and Titanic expert.

Mr Lahey said: 'It's terribly sad that PH's life ended that way but PH knew the risks. I told him in very candid terms why he shouldn't be out there. He understood. I believe PH thought in some way that by being out there he could help these guys avoid a tragedy but instead he ended up in the middle of one.

READ MORE: UNDERWATER SURVIVAL EXPERT REVEAL'S TITAN SUB'S BIGGEST 'RED FLAGS'
'I told PH that going out there in some way sanctioned this operation. I said: "You're becoming an ambassador for this thing; people look at you and your record and the life you lead and things you've done, which are extraordinary, and in some way you are legitimising what [Oceangate] are doing."'

Mr Rush, a self-style innovator, never sought certification or classification for his vessel. He insisted regulators could not keep up with his technology.

His combination of a cylindrical carbon fibre hull with titanium end caps was deemed by industry experts as a dangerous design flaw and it has been suggested as the likely cause of the Titan's implosion.

Mr Lahey, who has worked for 43 years in the field and whose Titan subs featured in the BBC's Blue Planet, added: 'At the very time this monstrosity was being made, I was building the most capable subs of our age.'

A father and son who gave up their two tickets on the doomed Titan submersible say the OceanGate CEO flew on an 'experimental' plane to convince them to buy tickets.

Financier Jay Bloom had turned down tickets aboard the submersible for him and his son Sean after fearing they wouldn't survive the trip.

Speaking to NewsNation, Mr Bloom said that concerns had been raised after Mr Rush flew to Las Vegas to convince him aboard an 'experimental plane'.

Mr Bloom said: 'It was very concerning. The major red flag for my son was when Stockton came to see me in Las Vegas in March.

He said he was flying in in a two seater experimental plane that he built so he was coming to Las Vegas on an experimental plane that he built to take me on an experimental sub that he built to take me to the bottom of the Atlantic ocean.'

Mr Bloom continued: 'It's kind of surreal. Every time I see a picture of the people who lost their lives on this tragic event.

READ MORE: ANALYST BLASTS DOOMED TITAN SUBMERSIBLE AS 'UNNECESSARY'


'I look at the picture of the father and son who replaced my son and myself and think how easily but for the grace of God that could have been our picture on the news.

'When Stockton first approached me with the idea it sounded very sexy, very exciting, a real bucket list kind of item.

'My son is a big fan of the Titanic, so I thought it would be great for us to do something together. The allure of the proposition is so compelling.

'My son talked to his friend and they voiced concerns, about the vessel, the marine life, some of the materials that were used in the construction.'

The US Coast Guard is currently investigating the cause of the undersea implosion of the Titan submersible and has not ruled out finding human remains - while also hinting that the probe could lead to criminal charges.

Captain Jason Neubauer, who is chairing the US Coast Guard investigation, made the comments as the search and rescue aspects of the response came to an end.

British adventurer Hamish Harding and father and son Shahzada and Suleman Dawood were killed on board the submersible, alongside Stockton Rush and French national Paul-Henri Nargeolet.

Salvage operations are continuing and investigators have mapped the accident site, Cpt Neubauer told a press conference in Boston on Sunday.

The Coast Guard opened what it calls a Marine Board of Investigation (MBI) on Friday, he said, and is working with the FBI to recover evidence.

Cpt Neubauer said the convening of an MBI is the highest level of inquiry conducted by the US Coast Guard. It is unclear how long it will take. The US Coast Guard said it does not charge for search and rescue operations.

This includes a salvage operation at the debris site on the seabed about 1,600 feet (488 metres) from the bow of the Titanic wreck, about 2-1/2 miles (4 km) below the surface.

The findings will be shared with the International Maritime Organization and other groups 'to help improve the safety framework for submersible operations worldwide,' Cpt Neubauer said.

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His combination of a cylindrical carbon fibre hull with titanium end caps was deemed by industry experts as a dangerous design flaw and it has been suggested as the likely cause of the Titan's implosion.

I don't pretend to understand all of the science. But that seems like a concise summary. Different materials, with different characteristics under the stress of pressure, joined together.

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Originally posted by parabellum:

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Originally posted by gpbst3:
However he had enough confidence to put himself inside his own invention.

"Confidence" is not the word which comes to mind.

Yeah. I'm thinking "hubris" might be a more apt characterization.

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Originally posted by HRK:
The US Coast Guard is currently investigating the cause of the undersea implosion of the Titan submersible and has not ruled out finding human remains - ...

That seems rather unlikely.

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Originally posted by HRK:
... while also hinting that the probe could lead to criminal charges.

Captain Jason Neubauer, who is chairing the US Coast Guard investigation, made the comments as the search and rescue aspects of the response came to an end.

I wonder who they'd charge and for what? The man responsible for this tragedy is currently spread out over thousands of cubic miles of the North Atlantic Ocean.

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'My son is a big fan of the Titanic, so I thought it would be great for us to do something together. The allure of the proposition is so compelling.

What is there to be 'a fan' of?
The ship went down because the captain failed to heed warnings about icebergs and the owners of the company pumped-up the ship as being 'unsinkable'.
The movie Cameron made, while technically quite an achievement, was wrapped around a ho-hum romance story, which intensely stoked interest in the event. Shit, if there's a movie to watch about it, they should read up on Molly Brown, a more compelling story, and a real life person.

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Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:
However he had enough confidence to put himself inside his own invention.

"Confidence" is not the word which comes to mind.

Yeah. I'm thinking "hubris" might be a more apt characterization.

This comes to mind...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge.

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Originally posted by corsair:

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'My son is a big fan of the Titanic, so I thought it would be great for us to do something together. The allure of the proposition is so compelling.

What is there to be 'a fan' of?
The ship went down because the captain failed to heed warnings about icebergs and the owners of the company pumped-up the ship as being 'unsinkable'.

There has also been evidence recently discovered that there was a coal bunker fire on board the Titanic before it even left port - and that the heat from the fire significantly weakened the structural integrity of the Titanic's hull and water tight bulkheads. The owners and Captain also knew of this ongoing fire, added to the above issues, and sailed anyway.

Some people are just cheap. They think they can cut corners, and it will work out. That is their mindset, and Stockton appears to be a perfect example of this.

There are many people like this, but they should not be working in high risk industries, or as engineers. Millennium Towers, a 58 floor condominium skyscraper in San Francisco, is an example. The building owner cut corners and did not drill down to bedrock. Saved him a bundle of money, but now the building is tilting, and will probably have to be scrapped.

at this link is a video of a young man who was scheduled to go on Titan before the fatal dive. Various problems kept them from doing a dive.

It is interesting to see the details of the operation. I skipped thru some of the duller sections.


https://news.yahoo.com/youtube...n-sub-201001484.html

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

What is there to be 'a fan' of?
The ship went down because the captain failed to heed warnings about icebergs and the owners of the company pumped-up the ship as being 'unsinkable'.

If you cannot understand how the story of the Titanic fascinates people 111 years after she sank, then I don't know how to explain it to you. . . Titanic has fascinated me for 40 years, because there are so many lessons to learn (pride, hubris, bravery, denial, ete etc etc). I would love to visit the wreck site in a REAL certified sub (built by 50 yr old white guys, NOT trendy/shady 'innovators').

Same for Bismarck, Hood, Scharnhorst, the Taffey 3 ships, Hornet, Lexington... I could go on (I am a history major).

Also, I hate Cameron's movie.

^^^One can be fascinated and/or intrigued by a story and not be a 'fan'...Fans cheer for their team, etc and the word doesn't seem to apply here.

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Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^^One can be fascinated and/or intrigued by a story and not be a 'fan'...Fans cheer for their team, etc and the word doesn't seem to apply here.

Granted. I would use a different word.

More like 'enthusiast.'

I heard on the radio that OceanGate is indefinitely shut down.

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Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I wonder who they'd charge and for what? The man responsible for this tragedy is currently spread out over thousands of cubic miles of the North Atlantic Ocean.

CG investigations can lead to “Best Practices” and other things-even things not to do.

Much like why the Navy has a (several) volume on Ammunition Handling and Safety Practices. Other peoples fuck ups lead to best practices.

Or like the NTSB does for aircraft…

WRT “charges”, the investigation could lead to someone knowingly doing work on the vessel-even though it was patently dangerous.

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Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

What is there to be 'a fan' of?
The ship went down because the captain failed to heed warnings about icebergs and the owners of the company pumped-up the ship as being 'unsinkable'.

If you cannot understand how the story of the Titanic fascinates people 111 years after she sank, then I don't know how to explain it to you. . . Titanic has fascinated me for 40 years, because there are so many lessons to learn (pride, hubris, bravery, denial, ete etc etc). I would love to visit the wreck site in a REAL certified sub (built by 50 yr old white guys, NOT trendy/shady 'innovators').

Same for Bismarck, Hood, Scharnhorst, the Taffey 3 ships, Hornet, Lexington... I could go on (I am a history major).

Also, I hate Cameron's movie.

There's a massive difference between being interested in the Titanic because as a ship wreck aficionado your interest is of a historical nature as the cruise liner's sinking became a landmark event and, someone whose fascination in the ship is solely because of a movie and all the 'romance', err hype that surrounded it.

Unless this kid had aspirations to be a deep-sea archeologist, marine architect or, something related of a maritime nature, this kid's interest sounds more like he had movie posters on his wall, bought the movie picture book and plays Celine Dion on a loop. Perhaps his father was the above, and sonny was dragged along, simply parroting the interests of his father, who is possibly an overbearing type looking to buy his kid's affections.

I'm a structural engineer, but I designed bridges and have nothing to offer wrt the technical aspects of this situation.

I attended an engineering conference years ago and the very last speaker presented the history of the 'Order of the Engineer.' You can read about it here: https://order-of-the-engineer.org/ but after doing a little research now, I can't find the story I remember from the speech that night. I remember a story about a bridge that collapsed that spawned this vow that engineers take to always remember that people's lives depend on their designs, and to help remind them of this vow, they wear a ring on the pinkie finger of their working hand. Again I can't find this now but what I remember was that the rings were originally made from that bridge that collapsed. I found the story so interesting. I got the ring but it didn't last long. It just felt too weird on my finger but the concept always resonated with me and that's why I always think of it when engineering tragedies like this happen.

How do the Oceangate engineers sleep at night? Bad because they were coerced by their boss to go against their engineering judgment or bad because people died as a result of their bad design but without guilt of going against their oath? I think if it's the former, their bad sleep should be taking place in prison.

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How do the Oceangate engineers sleep at night? Bad because they were coerced by their boss to go against their engineering judgment or bad because people died as a result of their bad design but without guilt of going against their oath? I think if it's the former, their bad sleep should be taking place in prison.

That leads back to the earlier question asking who would be charged for this fiasco.
Many people involved may have been simple hourly or salaried labor, not expected to grasp the consequences of their work.
Others could be more knowledgeable and culpable.

I don't know how to embed this, or if it's even worth it, but here's an interesting 59-second video showing the relationship between pressure and depth.

Reddit link

I'm going to guess, that the reason deep sea submersibles are mostly relegated to researchers and the occasional honored/paying guest is due to the extreme cost of building, maintaining, and deploying such vessels.

Related to VThoky's video... I knew a guy that was Navy Academy. He elected to take a tour on a sub that included a dive. Each midshipman was given a Styrofoam cup and asked to write their name on it. They were collected and placed in an external tank. When they returned the tank was opened and the cups were now the size of a shot glass and hard as a rock, with their names perfectly scaled. The pressure from the dive compressed the foam. It was really cool to see that tiny little perfect cup.

Here are a bunch of idiots who paid a quarter million dollars each to ride in "submarine" that they knew was an unsafe pos that was cobbled together out of spare parts. All to see where another boat sank over a hundred years ago.

People can spend their money any way they choose, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for this bunch. Especially when alot of people are struggling to just keep food on the table, and gas in their vehicles.