I don't think those passengers were idiots. I think they were conned by Rush.

Talking about people struggling financially has nothing to do with this. If someone has a billion dollars, should they give it all away to people in need? If you've got a billion, two billion or whatever, what's a quarter of a million for a once in a lifetime experience? If you can afford it and you want to go, are you supposed to say 'Oh, I can't because some people are in need'?

That's not the way the world works and I think you know this. Saying that these people should feel guilty about their money, and then give it away, that's Marxism, man. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Those passengers did nothing wrong except allow themselves to be lulled into a sense of safety by a con man.

I never said millionaires should feel guilty about having money. I said they could spend it the way they want, but even if I was a big Titanic history buff, I could sure find a better use for my money than giving it to this conman.

Since this happened, there are all kinds of questionable safety stuff coming out about the guy running this outfit. Before giving a quarter million dollars to this guy, maybe they should've done some research on him & his "sub." Maybe they did, and just didn't care. Either way, I don't feel sorry for them.

You called them idiots for getting in a craft they knew was unsafe when in fact they had been told by this con man that it was perfectly safe and how in decdaes there had never been an accident yadda yadda.

That doesn't make them idiots; it makes them victims.

I used to have the same styrofoam cup myself. What they did was take the styrofoam cups and just put them all in a mesh laundry bag that we all had in the military. Then they just secured it up on the bridge in the conning tower (sub guys forgive me if I am screwing up the terminology). Then we just dove and btw they don't go anywhere near Titanic levels, at all. Yup, tiny little cup when you surfaced.

Another of their things they would do for a showstopper was that on the surface they would tie a string across the mess from side to side. It was tight and taut, straight across. Then as we went down you could watch it sag and I will admit my memory was that it sagged enough that I was like wtf? lol

Nobody gets to tell me a "better" use of my money. Fuck that. Truth is that most people "starving" in America did it to themselves or their parents are drug addicts. That sucks but nobody should starve in America.

I still think they're idiots. Being millionaires, I'm sure they have contacts who can research any companies they do business with.

If anyone would enter "Safety concerns about Oceangate" on an internet search bar, they'd come up with pages of them. I'm sure they could've had associates contact previous employees, potential customers who questioned the safety of the company, etc. If they didn't independently check into the safety of this outfit beforehand, they're idiots.

quote:

Originally posted by Ironbutt:
I still think they're idiots. Being millionaires, I'm sure they have contacts who can research any companies they do business with.

If anyone would enter "Safety concerns about Oceangate" on an internet search bar, they'd come up with pages of them. I'm sure they could've had associates contact previous employees, potential customers who questioned the safety of the company, etc. If they didn't independently check into the safety of this outfit beforehand, they're idiots.

Prior to the implosion, how many of those reports of safety or others questioning this company and owner were out there, imagine that the number has increased exponentially as people rush to be another "I knew it" person.

Para's description of Victim is apt, these people had great interest in the subject, a desire to be one of the few who went to see the wreck as well as the means to do it.

He preyed on people with the money and desire to participate, and it's why his venture was to the Titanic and not 400 feet down to look at reef and fish in the Caribbean.

Stockton Rush's ego and personality drove this disaster, wonder how he'll be portrayed in the inevitable made for Netflix movie...

^^^In the end, as slime...

Put me in the camp of I had never heard of OceanGate before last week. I suspect the internet was not chockfull of internet woe prior to this trip.

I think they are victims. Rush was a conman. He preyed on people who for some reason refused to do any due diligence on his safety claims. On the other hand there is another thread about would you fly to space? It is filled with yes's. The truth though is the the best case scenario is that you have an experience that most won't. The worst is that you ride a fiery comet back through the atmosphere. That isn't even close to worth it to me for a photo op and an opportunity to say what I did. I am most definitely not a member of the selfie generation though.

The world is better off without this guy. We are lucky he built a 5 person sub and not a 10.

Do insurance rates for billionaires skyrocket now ?

I kinda want to know the total pay out for all those involved

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
That doesn't make them idiots; it makes them victims.

This ^^^^^

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Put me in the camp of I had never heard of OceanGate before last week. I suspect the internet was not chockfull of internet woe prior to this trip.

He was well known within the mechanical-diving community, he was THAT GUY, attempting to build a commercial sub vehicle using unconventional materials and methodology. This wasn't their first dive down to Titanic, however repeated stress', questionable engineering and lack of redundancy caught up.

Sounds like he had trouble with raising capitol and unlike James Cameron and Victor Vescovo, he was much more involved in the design and development, instead of focusing on making sure the funding kept flowing like the other two. Rich guys getting involved with passion projects have two big jobs: making sure they're hiring the best people possible and keeping the financials flowing. Getting into the weeds with the experts and meddling-around only creates problems, and it sounds like Rush was involved much more than he should've.

quote:

Originally posted by Ironbutt:
I still think they're idiots.

I wouldn't expect to move anyone who takes the extreme position of condemning these innocent people.

quote:

Originally posted by Ironbutt:
If anyone would enter "Safety concerns about Oceangate" on an internet search bar, they'd come up with pages of them.

Yeah, now. However, I like many others had not heard of them before the sub went missing so I'm sure there wasn't a boatload of information out there about their safety practices.

quote:

Originally posted by Ironbutt:
Since this happened, there are all kinds of questionable safety stuff coming out about the guy running this outfit. Before giving a quarter million dollars to this guy, maybe they should've done some research on him & his "sub." Maybe they did, and just didn't care. Either way, I don't feel sorry for them.

Pretty harsh summary of the, yes, victims. Your words "since this happened" is precisely why all of the shit about Rush is coming out. A month ago, I'll bet there was really nothing online as far as investigative reports on the company and the guy. Plus there was really no deep sea sub disasters or deaths prior to this incident. The people who did pull out and cancel did so out of their own personal heebee jeebees, hairs on the back of the neck.

Being well known in a pretty fucking obscure field isn't exactly the same as being well known. This is a tiny little segment of life. Deep sea submersibles. An even tinier segment is deep sea submersibles for hire/tourism. I do think these victims should have been more proactive in their own due diligence. This guy had the spiel down and didn't mind lying through his teeth. Still not sure how much you could dig up just through the internet about this operation and safety prior to this event. I say that because I have looked and it is hard to nail down EXACTLY how many dives, how deep, how long in duration the TITAN has done. You can literally pull up the tail number of the jet you are taking to the West Coast on next week and get its life history. Not quite so with this submersible.

quote:

Not quite so with this submersible.

There in lies the problem, the data is defined by the quality of the input, as Garbage in Garbage out is a rule, it's doubtful you could trust him to report the proper use of his equipment.

You are absolutely correct. This guy was a lying asshat of the worst kind. His lies killed those people. That is part of why I got into this argument with a1bcdj. It is nearly impossible to get the straight skinny about this operation/TITAN. He wasn't honest about anything. And just to tease the tiger, nobody is making another CF deep submersible for human transport. Yes, I will take that bet. lol

quote:

His lies killed those people. That is part of why I got into this argument with a1bcdj.

I don't know why you're arguing then, since I haven't defended Rush or his actions at all. All I have defended is having the opportunity to advance technology and that lessons will be learned form those success and failures.

quote:

It is nearly impossible to get the straight skinny about this operation/TITAN

It's not really that difficult. Just about every assertion made by a poster that was incorrect was proven wrong by a simple Google search.

quote:

nobody is making another CF deep submersible for human transport. Yes, I will take that bet. lol

Once again, you can hop on that Google and check. June 23, 2023:

https://www.designnews.com/ind...hen-properly-applied

quote:

Following the loss of the OceanGate Expeditions Titan tourist submersible, the company’s use of carbon fiber composite material to construct the sub’s pressure hull has come into question, as the industry standard has been to make them from titanium.

But a Rhode Island company that specializes in building carbon fiber pressure vessels for submersibles has compiled an impressive record of safety and reliability that says the material can be used in this application, as long as the vessel is designed and tested properly.

Composite Energy Technologies (CET) provides carbon fiber pressure vessels to commercial and government customers such as the Office of Naval Research that have never failed in their dives to much deeper sites than Titanic, said president Chase Hogoboom in an interview with Design News

There's a lot more in that article, from a professional, who is in this business, that explains how it is a viable and proven material, how it can pass tests, etc.

It's not about me "being right", it's about me "seeking out knowledge instead of guessing".

...as long as the vessel is designed AND tested properly!

I’d of taken that money & buy a red ‘vette, white interior, manual and been real happy.