quote:

Originally posted by airsoft guy:
How about we fix our own house before meddling in the homes of others?

I don't like the idea of foreigners messing around with our politics, I can't imagine many around the world would like us doing the same to them.

+111111111111

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
The various "-isms" get a more enthusiastic reception in Europe, because theirs is a tradition and culture of class, royalty, nobility, based on heritage. You were born into a certain class, and with few exceptions, that's where you lived. The "-isms" offered the hope of a way out of that.

Europeans have a different relationship to their government than we do. They are ruled. Thus far, here the government has been only tolerated, within prescribed limits.

Well, the rules and the law you obey in the US come form somewhere. If it was not the cabinets who debate over it, who did? The same procedure has every country with a representative democracy. I have lived in the US for quite a while, and except that you have more freedom in your mobility, it’s not much different from the various European countries. Or can you provide some details of lberties you have, we don't? Can you get rid of the 1986 import ban? We could if we get the people.

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
The various "-isms" get a more enthusiastic reception in Europe, because theirs is a tradition and culture of class, royalty, nobility, based on heritage. You were born into a certain class, and with few exceptions, that's where you lived. The "-isms" offered the hope of a way out of that.

Europeans have a different relationship to their government than we do. They are ruled. Thus far, here the government has been only tolerated, within prescribed limits.

Well, the rules and the law you obey in the US come form somewhere. If it was not the cabinets who debate over it, who did? The same procedure has every country with a representative democracy. I have lived in the US for quite a while, and except that you have more freedom in your mobility, it’s not much different from the various European countries. Or can you provide some details of lberties you have, we don't? Can you get rid of the 1986 import ban? We could if we get the people.

Switzerland seems to be free of nobility, unlike Great Britain, France, even Germany where there are Dukes, Earls, Princes, Barons, Lords and Ladies, and even a Queen still. It is less hereditary now than in the past.

The differences are more a matter of attitude, I think than in a cold listing of freedoms and liberties, although not exclusively.

One example is the 4th and 5th Amendments. The gendarmes in France can stop and search you at their pleasure, as long as they want, for whatever they want, I am told. They don't appoint a lawyer if you can't afford one and you can be compelled to incriminate yourself, by almost whatever it takes.

The British don't have freedom of speech and press to the extent the US does. The Officials Secrets Act, etc. Here, if the media get possession of classified material and decide to publish it, they are seldom prosecuted. Not so, I'm informed in Great Britain.

I have no experience with Germany, but I doubt it is US like.

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
AfD wont get anywhere. These fu**ing goons are good on immigation that's all, but they have not got a cule about economy and any other issues it takes to run a government. If these fuckers are going to get somewhere, you will find me in the re$istance because LePen, AfD and all other members of this political stream are overly poplulatet with the NeoNazi scum. A breed we dont need anymore over here in Europe. You can have them all for free as a Christmas present.

And here we go, buying into the same media bull that they tried painting Trump with. Congratulations.

Nope. I can download the party program of AdF and can read and understand it. I do not have to rely on translations or political websites giving me an interpretation of their BS. Can you? Have you been in Dresden? Have you dealth with the AfD goons in person?
Trump is your business, not ours.

I'm only familiar with some of the politics in France, none of the other European countries, and the media portrayal of Le Pen and members of the National Front is the exact same as it was in the US about Trump. In Europe, anything to the right of pure socialism is "Far Right." I don't know anything about the afd, but if they're Nazis, lumping them as the same as Trump or even Le Pen means simply buying the media bull, plain and simple.

quote:

Originally posted by airsoft guy:
How about we fix our own house before meddling in the homes of others?

I don't like the idea of foreigners messing around with our politics, I can't imagine many around the world would like us doing the same to them.

The defeat of the right anywhere is a defeat of the right everywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
AfD wont get anywhere. These fu**ing goons are good on immigation that's all, but they have not got a cule about economy and any other issues it takes to run a government. If these fuckers are going to get somewhere, you will find me in the re$istance because LePen, AfD and all other members of this political stream are overly poplulatet with the NeoNazi scum. A breed we dont need anymore over here in Europe. You can have them all for free as a Christmas present.

The alternative, which from your post you seem to prefer, is the ascendency of Islam in Europe.

It seems quite ridiculous, and not somewhat shortsighted, to be so opposed to the political right in Europe, whatever their tenuous and insinuated affiliations might be, that you would welcome foreign oppressors in the form of Islam, and homegrown oppressors in the form of increasingly overbearing and restrictive leftists. I'd go so far as equating it to saying, "I don't like Trump, so the Russians should just take over America."

It's mind-boggling, truly. How can anyone be so completely antagonistic toward self-preservation?

To me this is easy to answer. We help by being the shining light they can follow. This is what we used to be and what we need to become again. Anything less is throwing away our birthright in the worst way.

We don't have to meddle or interfere. WE THE PEOPLE just need to set the tone and give hope.

Mark

Several years ago I sent a card and a little cash to Geert Wilder's political party. It was when he had to live in an old jail or air force base because of the threats from the islamo-supremacists. The PVV responded with their own letter. The tone of their letter was pleasantly surprised.

Try these...

www.geertwilders.nl
www.pvv.nl

You can also find the danish, swedish, czech, and norwegian anti- invader political parties online. A good source for information is Gates of Vienna.

www.gatesofvienna.net and www.jihadwatch.org

Send emails or letters, I am sure that the europeans will respond. Its a real war...

Americans supporting the European New Right to fight socialism is damn funny. Because not only are these folks espousing the maintenance or even extension of the welfare state, they are also generally anti-American. Which should be no surprise; after all they are nationalists and xenophobes, and tend to subscribe to the classic European stereotype of the ignorant, uncultured, newly-rich ugly American cowboy, laced with resentment of the US for calling the shots and importing its values of individual freedom, free market economy etc. to Europe since WW II (or arguably WW I), often with a side of conspiracy-mindedness to explain this sorry state of affairs, and frequently connected to anti-Semitism.

Behold the beautifully illustrative picture from a PEGIDA march in Dresden on 5 January 2015. The "Ami go home" poster in the back needs no translation; I suspect the partly covered text is calling for an end to the "occupation by NATO". Poster in front says "Gospodin Putin! help us, save us, from the corrupt, anti-people FRG regime as well as from America + Israel!", with the thoughtful addition of "Israel's genocide" below. Poster on the right calls to support German families by raising child support payments by the state to 500 Euro (it's currently ca. 200 per month), as well as for interest-free loans to any married couple, and "mother's wages"; this is actually a poster of the neo-Nazi National Democratic Party, just with the letters NPD in the upper left corner patched over.



https://commons.wikimedia.org/...6507).jpg?uselang=de

All of the various populist right-wing parties share this position of paying more benefits. The Fidesz in Hungary and PiS in Poland already enacted this after coming to power in the time-tested way of buying yourself a thankful electorate. In the UK, one of UKIP's scare tactics in the Brexit campaign was claiming that the EU was going to make Britain abolish the National Health Service, and proposed redirecting payments to the EU into that favorite socialized healthcare scheme of American conservatives (while we're at it, Americans refering to the EU as a socialist project is also damn funny given that European leftists blast it as a neo-liberal destroyer of social protections for prosecuting its equal market competition rules).

In France, Marine le Pen has styled herself the defender of the 35-hour work week and similar sacred workers' rights. This is in fact a change from the Front National's pro-market stance under her father - to win votes from traditionally leftist workers' areas - along with getting away from the old anti-Semitism (of course in the way of embarrassing parents, daddy once in a while still pops up railing against the Jews, to the point where Marine had him ejected from the party last year). Similar to the German AfD which has taken votes away from the Left Party (successor to the old East German socialist state party) in its East German heartlands in particular, and where the AfD group in the Baden-Württemberg state assembly split earlier this year because no majority could be found for ejecting a published anti-Semite from their midst. What can one say, these types are national-socialists in the most literal meaning of the words.

They may hail Trump's election because it gives them hope to similarly beat the odds in a populist national campaign, and it could give them some momentum; and also that a retreat of the US from world politics under him will decrease American global power and promotion of the values of Western liberal democracy which have defined most the 20th century (and also because they're being told to by opinion shapers from Russia who hope he will withdraw US protection from Eastern Europe so they can have their old Soviet empire back). But make no mistake: Trump is the embodiment of every ugly American stereotype this crowd adheres to, and they will turn on him as soon as lofty political ideas meet reality and they find he's just another American. Same thing happened to Obama with European leftists who thought he was one of theirs, then got rapidly disenchanted with him over his failure to close down Guantanamo, stepping up the drone war, NSA spying on allies, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by airsoft guy:
How about we fix our own house before meddling in the homes of others?

I don't like the idea of foreigners messing around with our politics, I can't imagine many around the world would like us doing the same to them.

THIS.

I find it annoying when foreigners opine on American politics. I usually try to refrain from opining on other countries politics.

A few class E containerships of ammo, arms, and comm is a start.

It's time look after the United States of America.

Let the other counties do their own thing. If they want to continue down the rabbit hole, fine. Enjoy the ride.

We need to "help" ourselves. We are NOT in a position to pay for the rest of the world problems. I believe Mr. Trump may help us reign in such foolishnes.

Those who wish to "help" others in Euro or elsewhere, it should be a personal decision. Knock yourselves out.

Myself, I don't give flip.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Monk:

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
......

The alternative, which from your post you seem to prefer, is the ascendency of Islam in Europe.

......

It's mind-boggling, truly. How can anyone be so completely antagonistic toward self-preservation?

It's actually simple. I don't share you fear. I'm not in team Monk. That's the freedom I have, that's the freedom I take. But keep it up with mind-boggling minds, there is nothing wrong with that.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
Americans supporting the European New Right to fight socialism is damn funny....

I am not sure I agree with, or even understand most of your post.
But I do admit that whenever I try to understand the politics of another country (including Europe and Taiwan) I am immediately confused by how the concepts seem all "mixed up" compared to the way we think and use the terminology in the USA. We think we understand the connotations associated with "Left and "Right" and "liberal" and "conservative", but thy are definitely used differently elsewhere.

The quintessential and cliche example of course is Naziism, which was thoroughly socialist in economic and social policies (Nation SOCIALIST German Workers Party), but has been considered "Right-wing" solely because of the extreme nationalism aspect.

Now, in the USA, liberals try to label anyone that they simply don't like as a "Nazi", thinking that "right wing" always means "mean, hateful, authoritarian, and bigoted". But conservatives seem to accept the label of "right wing" thinking it only refers to "conservative" philosophy.

Do I have things screwed up ?

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
Well, the rules and the law you obey in the US come form somewhere. If it was not the cabinets who debate over it, who did? The same procedure has every country with a representative democracy. I have lived in the US for quite a while, and except that you have more freedom in your mobility, it’s not much different from the various European countries. Or can you provide some details of liberties you have, we don't? Can you get rid of the 1986 import ban? We could if we get the people.

You do realize that cabinets don't debate laws here, right? The laws come from or are approved (and generally modified) by the legislature rather than the Executive. The Cabinet, which works for the Executive, can do little more than propose and advocate. Perhaps we need to start this discussion at a more fundamental level - representative democracies clearly do not all follow the same procedure if you're assuming the Cabinet has a formal role to play in the legislative process.

As for liberties, I find it hard to understand how differing interests and opinions or legislature and regulations that reflect them somehow prove that we enjoy only limited liberties compared to the Swiss.

quote:

The alternative, which from your post you seem to prefer, is the ascendency of Islam in Europe.

So it is the Far Right or Muslims? The Fourth Reich or the Caliphate? C'mon, Monk, it isn't that simplistic.

If you think they are going to start tearing down Cathedral Bell Towers and replacing them with minarets, it just ain't happening.

quote:

Originally posted by Echtermetzger:

quote:

The alternative, which from your post you seem to prefer, is the ascendency of Islam in Europe.

So it is the Far Right or Muslims? The Fourth Reich or the Caliphate? C'mon, Monk, it isn't that simplistic.

If you think they are going to start tearing down Cathedral Bell Towers and replacing them with minarets, it just ain't happening.

Let's be clear about something. We're not talking about the far right. We're not even talking about the right. We're talking about people who are simply to the right of where Europe has been heading the last few decades.

Nazis were not right wing.

quote:

I have no experience with Germany, but I doubt it is US like.

I have a fair amount of experience with Germany.

And, no, it is not much like the US. Gun control is 1000x worse than here. It has gotten a lot worse in the years since I was stationed there. This idiot gubbermint has virtually killed the part of the Status of Forces Agreement that allowed US military to buy guns in the PX or in gun shops run by the military. They were called Rod and Gun clubs. If one possessed a valid German hunting license one could go to virtually any gun store (not many of them) and purchase a weapon. For non-officers it required a "permit" signed by the CO to buy one at the rod and gun club, but AIR, no such was required to buy one on the economy,

A cousin and his wife live in Hanau, and they are both AVID hunters. He has a collection of guns, or did a couple decades ago, which included pistols. But he was worried that the rules would change and they would take his hand guns. Don't know it it has.

May be wrong here, but as I understand it, it is now impossible for US forces to buy guns in Germany. May be wrong, but that is my recollection from several years ago when obummer signed that last SOFA.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
Well, the rules and the law you obey in the US come form somewhere. If it was not the cabinets who debate over it, who did? The same procedure has every country with a representative democracy. I have lived in the US for quite a while, and except that you have more freedom in your mobility, it’s not much different from the various European countries. Or can you provide some details of liberties you have, we don't? Can you get rid of the 1986 import ban? We could if we get the people.

You do realize that cabinets don't debate laws here, right? The laws come from or are approved (and generally modified) by the legislature rather than the Executive. The Cabinet, which works for the Executive, can do little more than propose and advocate. Perhaps we need to start this discussion at a more fundamental level - representative democracies clearly do not all follow the same procedure if you're assuming the Cabinet has a formal role to play in the legislative process.

As for liberties, I find it hard to understand how differing interests and opinions or legislature and regulations that reflect them somehow prove that we enjoy only limited liberties compared to the Swiss.

The is to general. But dont worry I understand the polictical system in my own country and the one of our neighbours.

We - at least us in Switzerland - have the option of a peoples initiative to change make changes in our constitution and referendums to make changes of the law. Either one has to be backed up by the people - not the cabinet. In case of a success, the executive has to make proposals for the changes, the cabinet has to approve and then it's going back to the people in form of a national vote to either agree or reject the chagnes. it's called direct democracy.

As has been said, I will treat them the way I would like to be treated, and that's by staying out of their affairs. Besides, in western Europe, everything is always America's fault.