One glaring omission from the movie that no one mentioned is that there are no fighter planes depicted at all. Not one!

It’s now streaming on HBO so I watched it last night. As others have said, it’s not a masterpiece and does have some omissions (to be expected even though it was over 2 hours).

Omissions aside, it does serve as a good reminder of how perilous the war in the Pacific was and how easily things could have gone the other way. I can’t imagine the impact if we had lost Midway and had to deal with an invasion of Hawaii.

The same can be said of the European theater and how specific things went our way on an imprecise battlefield. I am reminded, especially on this Independence Day weekend, how thankful I am to Almighty God for what I see as divine providence in the positioning of men in those days to stand up and lead. Not to mention the leadership of men some 244 years ago.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Collins:
One glaring omission from the movie that no one mentioned is that there are no fighter planes depicted at all. Not one!

Are you referring to the attack on the IJN carriers? If so, there really weren't any American fighters there. They had the shortest range of all the American aircraft, and stupidly, some were launched first and burned gas while waiting for the whole strike package to launch (Hornet did this - her performance in the battle was pathetic). So, most of them turned back before reaching the Japanese carriers - some made it back to their carriers, some to Midway, and a bunch ended up ditching after running out of gas. The piece-meal attacks by the 3 torpedo plane squadrons were carried out without any fighter support at all, and from what I recall, none of them were able to support the dive bombers, either.

^^^
You can could sum-up the battle as not necessarily who had luck or, good fortune on their side but, who's mistakes would be less costly.

While USN air wing strategy was hopeful at best, Nagumo's hesitancy, and dithering actually cost the IJN more so.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Collins:
One glaring omission from the movie that no one mentioned is that there are no fighter planes depicted at all. Not one!

The piece-meal attacks by the 3 torpedo plane squadrons were carried out without any fighter support at all, and from what I recall, none of them were able to support the dive bombers, either.

It's my understanding that the obsolete Devastator torpedo planes were knowingly sacrificed, in order to distract the IJN fighters from the higher flying Dauntless Dive-bombers. It was a terrible sacrifice, but it enabled those dive-bombers to actually score the hits and sink those carriers. The torpedoes themselves were very problematic too, as they failed to explode far more frequently than they worked, regardless of how they were deployed (from aircraft, surface ships, or submarines).

quote:

Originally posted by pulicords:

It's my understanding that the obsolete Devastator torpedo planes were knowingly sacrificed, in order to distract the IJN fighters from the higher flying Dauntless Dive-bombers. It was a terrible sacrifice, but it enabled those dive-bombers to actually score the hits and sink those carriers. The torpedoes themselves were very problematic too, as they failed to explode far more frequently than they worked, regardless of how they were deployed (from aircraft, surface ships, or submarines).

The US made no conscious decision to 'sacrifice' any aircraft at Midway. The carrier commanders planned to have the fighters, dive bombers, and torpedo planes all arrive over the Japanese fleet at once, so they could attack all at once from different directions, thus overwhelming enemy defenses (this failed badly). Bad scheduling and a seemingly endless series of FUBARs combined to cause the aircraft to appear over the Japanese fleet at random (with Hornet's fighters and dive bombers, representing fully 1/3 of effective US striking power, heading off on the "Flight to Nowhere" way the heck away from the right direction). It was the Torpedo 8 squadron commander, who in a blatant act of disobedience, took his planes towards what he knew to be the right direction to find the IJN carriers.

US planners actually had more fighters allocated to the dive bombers, since they took heavier losses at Coral Sea than the torpedo planes. Still, it was always the US intent to have all aircraft arrive together to make a coordinated attack.

It was simple bad luck that caused the US torpedo planes to arrive separately without fighter protection. This, though, kept the Japanese off guard, kept their carriers busy launching and recovering fighters to beat off the incessant attacks, and allowed the dive bombers to launch their attacks virtually unopposed. It was all luck/divine providence; the US never planned it this way.

I watched it the other night and it wasn't bad. They had a decent cast that seemed to blend well together. I couldn't imagine actually being there at the onset.

Watched it last night and generally think it’s a good movie. Too much CGI to suit me, but that was understandable. Pretty good casting, including Harrelson, who is very competent in the role of Nimitz.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

...It was the Torpedo 8 squadron commander, who in a blatant act of disobedience, took his planes towards what he knew to be the right direction to find the IJN carriers...

I read about that for the first time in "A Dawn Like Thunder."

https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Li...ipbooks%2C205&sr=1-2

From that book I also learned that during the Battle of Midway Torpedo 8 had a detachment of new Avengers that flew missions off Midway Island:

https://imodeler.com/2017/06/m...niatures-back-dated/

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

...It was the Torpedo 8 squadron commander, who in a blatant act of disobedience, took his planes towards what he knew to be the right direction to find the IJN carriers...

I read about that for the first time in "A Dawn Like Thunder."

https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Li...ipbooks%2C205&sr=1-2

From that book I also learned that during the Battle of Midway Torpedo 8 had a detachment of new Avengers that flew missions off Midway Island:

https://imodeler.com/2017/06/m...niatures-back-dated/

Yeah, that's a great book. The Hornet had serious problems at Midway, but they were overlooked since the US Navy won such a resounding victory. There remain serious mysteries surrounding the behavior of the Hornet's Air Group Commander (Stanhope Ring) and the Hornet's captain, Marc Mitscher.

Everybody else set off right towards the reported position of the IJN fleet, yet Ring insisted on taking his planes (which represented 1/3 of the US carrier strength) off on a different course. Nobody has been able to explain why. Lt Commander Waldron (Torpedo 8) called Ring on the radio and said they were going in the wrong direction. Ring refused to answer (to be fair, they were supposed to be under radio silence). After a couple more radio calls, Waldron took his squadron and headed off to the right direction, eventually finding the IJN fleet. Had he survived, he probably would have been court-martialed. Ring's group never saw a single IJN ship that flight and had to return to the Hornet. I think all the fighters ditched after running out of gas (the Hornet launched the fighters first, even though they had the shortest range). It was a fiasco.

Now, some speculate that Mitscher and Ring may have thought the IJN fleet was split up, as intel reports (crappy on both sides during the battle) indicated the presence of only 2 carriers, when the US knew there should be 4. It was typical of US carrier groups to operate their carriers separately (as the US did at Midway), though the IJN did not do this. Of course, the US did not necessarily know the details of IJN carrier doctrine at this point. IF true, this may have been a wise decision, since sending the entire force against only part of the IJN fleet is what led to the loss of Lexington just a month before at Coral Sea. There, the entire US air package went after a single Japanese carrier, sinking her, but leaving the two big ones unmolested. These, in turn, sunk Lex and inflicted significant damage on Yorktown. So, perhaps Mitscher and Ring went after what they thought was the other half of the IJN carrier force so to engage the entire IJN carrier force. But, nobody came out and stated this, so it remains speculation only. It is the only explanation for the "Flight to Nowhere" I've read that makes any sense at all.

To further muddy the waters, neither Mitscher nor Ring gave any explanation, and Hornet did not submit an after-action report as was required after every action. Mitscher went on to become a great carrier admiral, but he screwed up royally at Midway. Had the US lost at Midway, he likely would have become a scapegoat and he (and Ring) would have been sent to Greenland or something.

Ring was a tool, as well. On his second mission (against Hiryu, I think), he returned with his bomb complaining that the bomb release didn't work. Turns out, he was pressing the wrong button (or lever, or whatever). They sent a junior officer to his stateroom that afternoon to explain to the commander of Hornet's air group how to drop a bomb. He went after the Japanese cruisers the next day and missed with the one bomb he was able to drop in 3 missions.

Now, he went on with Torpedo 8 to fly out of Guadalcanal, and he seems to have done well there. He was still a total jackwagon and his men hated him.

Hornet was a new carrier with a new air group, so they were very inexperienced (and the US forces at Midway were ALL grossly inexperienced compared to their later-war performance). Thank God Enterprise and Yorktown were there to save our bacon. If the entire US carrier fleet had acted with Hornet's level of incompetence, the US would have likely lost all three US carriers at Midway instead of just Yorktown.

With the 79th anniversary of the battle coming up, there's a bunch of content getting put out.

That movie sucked. History is so much better

As an aside. I toured the USS Midway in San Diego 2 years ago. In the Captains quarters (i think) there a large wall painting depicting a dive bomber attacking a Japanese carrier. Autographed by Dick Best...cool

Jaycat

quote:

Originally posted by Jaycat:
As an aside. I toured the USS Midway in San Diego 2 years ago. In the Captains quarters (i think) there a large wall painting depicting a dive bomber attacking a Japanese carrier. Autographed by Dick Best...cool

If memory serves, Dick Best practically single-handedly destroyed Akagi, the Japanese carrier fleet's flagship.

3 bombs hit/near-missed Akagi. Best's hit the flight deck, dead center, and set off the planes, fuel, bombs, and torpedoes cluttering up the hangar deck(s) (I think she had two hangar decks). This caused incontrollable fires, which doomed her.

1 bomb near-missed midships, and 1 punched through the deck and exploded right next to the rudders, jamming them. Akagi could not maneuver, causing her to circle endlessly, which prevented the Japanese from steering her into the wind to MAYBE help control the fires (it's doubtful this could have helped, but it DID prevent any attempt at towing her). She was eventually sunk by Japanese destroyers (Admiral Yamamoto himself ordered the Japanese to scuttle the ship, as the Japanese were mortified at the prospect of "using the emperor's own torpedoes to sink the emperor's ship." Akagi was THE single most important/significant ship in the Japanese Navy, so this was not an easy decision.

June 4 will be the 79th anniversary of the beginning of this battle.

we've all heard two phrases :

'it's better to be lucky than good'

and

'luck is when preparation meets opportunity'

this battle reinforces those concepts

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A interesting hour-long discussion with two Navy pilots on the significance of the Battle of Midway and its pivotal position in the history naval warfare strategy.
The Fighter Pilot Podcast: #114 Battle of Midway