quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
I think Jon got a raw, but not horrendous, deal.

Honestly in the end I think he got the best deal.

He loved the North and now he is free in the North.

No titles, no expectations, only live free with Ghost.

quote:

Lots of "out of character" (to one extent or another) moments in this season.

Agreed. Sansa stayed pretty true to her character and I can accept Jon being a basketcase, character-wise.

From his perspective, One second you are banging the Queen on the way to fight the Night King, then you find out you are her nephew, your whole life has been a lie, and it's on you to fix the entire world while riding a Dragon and fighting everyone, then the Queen kills an entire city.

I can see him being tired and wanting to 'check out", so to speak.

Tough crowd! I thought the ending was fully plausible and once Dani was killed--and she needed to be--the rest of it fell into place.

But per the above, her going nuts, while believable, was NOT how I'd have taken the finale. But once she did, she had to go. I thought Jon offing her the way he did was pretty anti-climatic. Again, plausible but kind of weak. I thought Arya was going to do it.

As for Bran becoming king. Why not? I was convinced it was going to be Sansa, whom I really grew to dislike over time. She turned into a version of Little Finger, cold, manipulative, and pretty ruthless. But she did get raped (figuratively and literally) over and over again to become that way. Does not mean I liked where she ended up. Nor did I feel the North removing itself from the realm believable. I joked that the others would go "can I change my vote and secede too?!?"

As for Jon returning North and leading the remnants of the Night Watch and wildlings. It made perfect sense, but was not exactly a thrilling or happy ending.

The largest , MAIN point is that the rulers of the (now) 6 kingdoms would in the future pick the next king, instead of it being hereditary.

All in all, I think the show limped into a semi-mediocre finale, but I'm not close to being outraged, etc.

Plus Jon’s whole purpose for being for the majority of his adult life disappeared in an evening

You can kind of expect to be a little listless after that even before everything else got heaped on him

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:
I think Jon got a raw, but not horrendous, deal.

Honestly in the end I think he got the best deal.

He loved the North and now he is free in the North.

No titles, no expectations, only live free with Ghost.

quote:

Lots of "out of character" (to one extent or another) moments in this season.

Agreed. Sansa stayed pretty true to her character and I can accept Jon being a basketcase, character-wise.

From his perspective, One second you are banging the Queen on the way to fight the Night King, then you find out you are her nephew, your whole life has been a lie, and it's on you to fix the entire world while riding a Dragon and fighting everyone, then the Queen kills an entire city.

I can see him being tired and wanting to 'check out", so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevbo:
I stopped reading the books....they just....wore....on me...and after the series passed where I was in the books my incentive to go back to reading them was very low.

I gave up my HBO subscription when I moved two years ago. My interest in the show had already waned.

I read the GRRM books and was riveted by them. But it seems GRRM got tired of them as well, and I stopped waiting for the next release. He moved on to his "Wild Cards" series and other works, seeming to (try to) leave GOT behind. I guess the dollars HBO dangled in front of him got the best of him. Same with "Nightflyers" (SyFy), which was cancelled after one season.

Would have been much more satisfying to have everyone squabbling and at war again... showing the Game never ends, and maybe Dany was right, you have to kick ass and be a tyrant to keep people from hurting themselves. Leaving them all to ponder how shitty it really is, and they ruined the only chance at peace by killing her.

As it is, Sansa shit all over everything anyway. No way Dorne and the Iron Islands stay and swear fealty to some Stark they don't know. Yara swore fealty to Dany, not the Starks who she wouldn't be too fond of, despite Theons love of them.

No way Gray Worm accepts all that BS. He wouldn't care about more war, he would accept it. Vengeance for his queen. The Dothraki just do what, go home? Nope. The Unsullied and Dothraki would go ape shit and declare total war. Killing Dany wouldn't be some political move to them. They believed she was right to burn it all. She was their queen and khaleesi.

So we wind up with a GoT’s version of the Holy Roman Empire, and the Kingdom of/in the North sets up a “Grosser Westeros” versus “Kleiner Westeros” future “Bruderkrieg” conflict with the Six Kingdoms Confederacy. Meh!

Irony: Daenerys promised to break the wheel and maybe she did, but now the six kingdoms are ruled by a guy sitting on two wheels.

Can't get away from them wheels.

quote:

Originally posted by Orguss:
I wonder if he considers a prequel to be a spinoff, since he's currently working on one as writer.

You mean "The Hedge Knight?" That was written in 1998! It spawned two more novels and a six-series comic book. It is set 90 years before GoT and features the adventures of "Dunk" (the future Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) and "Egg" (the future king Aegon V Targaryen).

I read the first. It's typical GRRM, whose writing I like.

quote:

Originally posted by bobtheelf:
Y'all are underestimating just how devious Bran was. Ever since he became the 3ER, he's been guiding events to this point.

He played the game better than anyone, because no one even knew he was playing.

Just keep telling yourself that.

Jon's resolution was right. He was always pretty much a pussy, without the gumption to stick to anything.

Sansa - of course.

Arya - kind of a cop out . . . what shall we do with Arya? Hmmm . . .

Bran - no way. That was out of nowhere. Bran's role was as expository assistant - explaining shit to the audience, and dropping plot twisting facts into the story. He isn't a real character.

Jamie and Cersie, sure. Makes sense. Could have gone other directions, but this makes sense at least.

Dany - yes she was always on that path where the ends justified the means. The end being getting herself on the Iron Throne. The stuff about liberation being pure lip service. This is consistent, but not the only way that could have played out.

Replacing a hereditary system and fighting between smaller kingdoms with a federation of some sort? Nah, I don't buy it. That happens when one ruler gets powerful enough to cram it down on the others.

All in all, once they got much past Martin's story, the grade for GOT went from an A to a C. Overall grade - B minus. A disappointment at the end.

quote:

Originally posted by bobtheelf:
Y'all are underestimating just how devious Bran was. Ever since he became the 3ER, he's been guiding events to this point.

He played the game better than anyone, because no one even knew he was playing.

Bullshit. Doesn't pass the sniff test. This was a sloppily written cop-out, plain and simple, not a culmination of his hidden character development as some sort of Machiavellian genius.


The funny thing is, we spent umpteen pages grousing about Dany's slightly out of left field (but not really) transformation. But then they drop this kind of ridiculous bullshit in the finale, which makes Dany's stuff pale in comparison because there was at least some prior groundwork laid for it, even if the end result was horribly rushed.

Much to say about the finale and Season 8 as a whole, but I don't have the will.

One question though....the final scene - I interpreted it to mean that Jon was saying "I'm done with all of this" and going to live North of the Wall as a wildling. I don't see him returning to Castle Black to serve in the Watch. (Is there even a NW anymore? I didn't see anyone but wildlings at Castle Black.)

Others have said it mirrors the first scene and is the Night's Watch patrolling the forest as they have always done. I don't buy it because they had all the women and children with them as if they were all going back home.

I took it as the Night's Watch was going out with the Wildlings as they head back to their home. But Jon and the other brothers will then return to Castle Black after their patrol, whereas the Wildlings will be staying to live.

I think Jon's too bound to his duty and honor to simply say "screw it, I'm quitting the Watch and going to find another redheaded Wildling and settle down". He's more like his adopted father (Ned Stark) in that regard than any of Ned's actual children.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
(Is there even a NW anymore? I didn't see anyone but wildlings at Castle Black.)

Apparently so, since there were at least those two members of the Watch who escorted him back to Castle Black, and at least one more waiting at Castle Black when they arrived, to blow the single horn blast for returning brothers.

It can then be assumed that there were others, so that there would be enough left to man the castle when the Wildlings left.


But they're going to have a hell of a time rebuilding that huge hole in the Wall at its east end...

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
One question though....the final scene - I interpreted it to mean that Jon was saying "I'm done with all of this" and going to live North of the Wall as a wildling. I don't see him returning to Castle Black

I agree - My take is Jon Snow is part of the 'Nights Watch' <wink> but regardless if he wears the black, he will live out his life beyond the wall.

If and when anyone were to query about him / etc, he would be the 'liaison to the wildlings'.

While agreeing it was rushed, I'm actually pretty okay with the ending. At least the ending place for most of the characters. However there were quite a few really poorly written, directed and acted scenes. The "counsel" gathering to discuss a new leader and the first meeting of the new king's cabinet where the worst. Very contrived and didn't fall in line with the theme of the series in my opinion. The disappointing thing to me is that there were so many good options (some pointed out above) that they could have done to enhance the ending and they just missed it.

So apparently, even though half the tent knew Jon’s real identity, no one thought to mention “hey, it’s cool - we have the real king right here?”

And why does Bran the all-seeing, all-knowing Three-Eyed Raven need a Master of Whisperers? What are they going to tell him he does not already know?!?

And does anyone really think Bronn isn’t already helping himself to buckets of cash from the treasury?

This was weak even by prime time network TV standards.

The show went out of its way to show how ruthless Grey Worm had become. The only person he followed was his queen, and he and The Unsullied would kill anyone who opposed her. Ep6 made a big point of showing Grey Worm executing Golden Company soldiers who had surrendered, b/c, "Any followers of Cersei must die."

From the time Jon killed Dany to when they had the UN meeting at King's Landing, a few weeks had passed. Why did Grey Worm even bother to keep Tyrion and Jon alive? It was clear that Tyrion and Jon both betrayed Dany. Did Grey Worm need them as bargaining chips? It wasn't as if The Unsullied wanted a piece of King's Landing or a place at the Westoros table. It seems out of character to me that Grey Worm didn't kill Tyrion and Jon as soon as he found out Dany was dead.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
From the time Jon killed Dany to when they had the UN meeting at King's Landing, a few weeks had passed. Why did Grey Worm even bother to keep Tyrion and Jon alive? It was clear that Tyrion and Jon both betrayed Dany. Did Grey Worm need them as bargaining chips? It wasn't as if The Unsullied wanted a piece of King's Landing or a place at the Westoros table. It seems out of character to me that Grey Worm didn't kill Tyrion and Jon as soon as he found out Dany was dead.

Very fair point. Why would he keep either of them alive? Maybe (just maybe) Tyrion, but Jon killed his Queen, very treacherously.

In the end, I think folks wanted Dan being a mostly sane and benevolent ruler...

If you think about it, Cersei caused untold death and suffering. If she was not such a horrid, treacherous person, they would not have lost a dragon to rain the north for an undead wilding, which STILL did not convince her to do jack-shit. She refused to surrender, hung her people out for slaughter, etc.

You know, after Drogon melted the iron throne, it could only have been Bran that would be king. He's the only one that brought his own throne.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
The show went out of its way to show how ruthless Grey Worm had become. The only person he followed was his queen, and he and The Unsullied would kill anyone who opposed her. Ep6 made a big point of showing Grey Worm executing Golden Company soldiers who had surrendered, b/c, "Any followers of Cersei must die."

From the time Jon killed Dany to when they had the UN meeting at King's Landing, a few weeks had passed. Why did Grey Worm even bother to keep Tyrion and Jon alive? It was clear that Tyrion and Jon both betrayed Dany. Did Grey Worm need them as bargaining chips? It wasn't as if The Unsullied wanted a piece of King's Landing or a place at the Westoros table. It seems out of character to me that Grey Worm didn't kill Tyrion and Jon as soon as he found out Dany was dead.

The only reason that I can think of was that initially they didn’t know for sure that she was dead. Sure Jon told them he killed her, but no one saw it. They just saw Drogon fly away. And Dany did have a history of hopping on the dragon and disappearing for a while. So while they are waiting to see if she comes back the remaining armies surround the city and demand Jon be released and that leads us to where the meeting started.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
Ep6 made a big point of showing Grey Worm executing Golden Company soldiers who had surrendered, b/c, "Any followers of Cersei must die."

Those were Lannister soldiers.

The Golden Company was wiped out in its entirety outside the walls.

But some of the Lannister soldiers on/within the walls of the city survived, to later be executed.

(It was also Lannister soldiers in the previous episode who tried to surrender, but were then slaughtered after dropping their swords.)