https://www.agmglobalvision.com/wlad-1b

Smudge, do you know anything about the AGM WLAD? It seems to be reasonably-priced and available.

It's a rebranded Laserspeed FL5, and there's some disagreement over with this particular offering from AGM is full power or not. Offhand, I recall some issues with the turrets, and the Picatinny mount holding up, but I could be remembering wrong and conflating it with their M3. They make decent stuff.

Honestly, a year ago, I would've said it's a fine choice for the money. Currently, they have the M6TR, which has a better form factor and a much cleaner, more powerful illuminator for around a grand from Cold Harbour Supply. They also have a VCSEL version that's even brighter for $100 more. Hit up DaBigBR and you can get an Iris 3 for less than what CHS is charging for an LE221G.

SHOT Show week is a bad time to order stuff like this. New things coming out, old things getting discontinued, and all the people who handle this stuff are in Vegas playing with new toys instead of processing orders and shipments.

What are you guys using for dot optics on pistols?

A few weeks ago, I shot an NV match with a loaner that had an RMR on it. It was fine. Last night I shot and NV match with a loaner that had an EFLX on it. It was also fine.

Swung by Glockmeister today and talked with the guy there and looked at the current MOS options and he suggested a G49 MOS. Since I have a G45, it would give me all the swap-aroo options and I could use it as a G17/47 with a dot. His suggestion after talking over my use case was a Holosun SCS if I wanted to carry it since those cowitness with factory height irons, or else just a 407 and then be into taller irons. His input on optics, while helpful, doesn't strike me as coming at it from experience with shooting under NODs, however.

This is my next move. Need to figure this one out pretty soon. I would prefer to stick with a factory Glock on this rather than all the aftermarket shit.

First I don't do Holosun due to COO.
But I have tens and tens of thousands of rounds down a glock MOS with an RMR without any issues since the Type 2 appeared. So no hesitation on recommending that. I have like a dozen of them no issues mounted on lots of different pistols shot all the time. Really only RMR downside is the battery location. That's really been for competition use not sure your use.
My second choice and my first when I care about ultimate reliability is to run an ACRO. Its probably the toughest of these designs that can run on a pistol.
Both will serve you well but if I was just buying one I'd get an acro. In terms of the gun when you run a red dot I see no reason for any additional barrel length since you don't need sight radius and you don't need velocity, so not sure why the 47 seems attractive?

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
That's really been for competition use not sure your use.

My primary consideration will be NV use, and everything else after that since I haven't felt a need for a red dot on a handgun until shooting two gun drills and matches under NODs. I carry a plain Jane G45 with Ameriglos and do well with it, so while I'm not ruling out carry, I'm not going to chase that dragon.

I am thinking that whatever I end up putting together will be my starter USPA gun, and I fully intend to keep it factory Glock with a Glock performance trigger. So, it'll be a daylight competition gun as well, but that is an afterthought.

In looking into the EFLX, I did find this about light transmission, glass clarity, and performance under NODs, which was interesting.


All-in-all, my experience with the EFLX was really positive, and I could see myself being pretty happy with it. The stuff about the DPP footprint and that whole can of worms is stuff I need to learn about. All the various footprints and cuts and whatnot is a topic I've skipped over entirely thus far.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
My second choice and my first when I care about ultimate reliability is to run an ACRO. Its probably the toughest of these designs that can run on a pistol.
Both will serve you well but if I was just buying one I'd get an acro.

That definitely brings up a consideration with closed vs open emitter. The stuff we do is out in the desert. Here in the Sonoran, we have some pretty fine dust that kicks up and gets into everything. Keeping my EXPS3 clean vs keeping my AEMS clean is a different experience. I'll have to think about that.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
In terms of the gun when you run a red dot I see no reason for any additional barrel length since you don't need sight radius and you don't need velocity, so not sure why the 47 seems attractive?

To be fair, I didn't say it was attractive, I just said I got loaned one, and the guy at Glockmeister recommended a 49 to complement my G45. I really like the G45, and after thinking about it and handling the G49, I no longer like the 19 length frame. It's too cramped for my hand. I'm not going to get rid of the 19's I have, but I'm also not going to add any more. 17 length frames only going forward. As for barrel length, I don't need any more velocity, but I also don't mind the longer slide. I've seen plenty of debate about this, and I know JlJones is pretty outspoken in his advocacy for just using a G17 instead of a 19X/45, and that once you add a pistol light, the whole balance thing gets thrown out of whack anyways. In truth, I'm not overly tied to any one barrel length, and kind of wouldn't mind owning and trying a G17L and G34, just to do it. I could end up with a full size frame and anything on top, honestly. I feel no need to be incredibly practical and purposeful about this one aspect. No strong feelings either way.

I got out there in the dark for a few hours on Tuesday night. A new friend is heavily invested in the gear, but lacks access to a good place to use it. So us two plus my most regular fellow nighttime shooter went out, to get him some valuable time with his stuff.

Some notes from observation of the new guy and his equipment:

He has the Holosun Iris. The rapidly scalable illuminator is slick, and the illumination is crystal clear. However, as far as I can tell, the illuminator doesn't really go so wide as to be super advantageous in close quarters. It gets wider, but not in a "flood" or diffused sort of way, and it's so stinking bright that I think it'd be overwhelming indoors.

He has a Vortex Huey. It's not good for passive aiming. All sorts of optics have NVG settings nowadays. Only the Eotech (and MRDS, though I don't have personal experience) is truly usable. Even with his "Supergain" high-speed NVG tube, he was unable to see the targets through his Huey. My trusty ol' green, likely ten-year-old tube could see just fine through the Eotech.

And a note about something of mine:

I never bring my pistol out. I knew he had a pistol to shoot, so I figured that was a good reason to shoot mine. I enjoyed it. It's not going to find a new home in my "system", but it might get more recreational use moving forward. The MK25 ran flawlessly with 147gr flat point subs, with the AAC Ti-Rant 9mm silencer and PEQ-14. The flood diffuser on the PEQ-14 is awesome. The illumination it provides is very pleasant, and not overly bright in close quarters.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
He has the Holosun Iris. The rapidly scalable illuminator is slick, and the illumination is crystal clear. However, as far as I can tell, the illuminator doesn't really go so wide as to be super advantageous in close quarters. It gets wider, but not in a "flood" or diffused sort of way, and it's so stinking bright that I think it'd be overwhelming indoors.

Yeah, according to their US media guy, that was an intentional decision. They've decided to let the aftermarket tackle the diffuser game, and they have apparently given Villain Weapon Systems a few early samples to work with to do just that. I guess the thinking is that a PEQ 15 is in a somewhat similar situation in terms of how it functions and since an FP PEQ has been kind of the benchmark for what kind of illumination end users want, that they decided to shoot for something that would yield a tight beam at three hundred yards. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that this is what the company has been saying via their media and US public relations guy on Reddit and Instagram.

Now that it's been out for a bit and into some hands and feedback is coming out, I'm not sure this is the one for my needs. I'm not doing anything at night at ranges past a hundred yards or so at this point, I don't own any clip-on units that require a tight illuminator out to five hundred yards, and even if I were, apparently the Iris kind of falls short in that role. As you say, it doesn't natively handle closer ranges. So what is it good for? Without getting my hands on one in person, it's hard to say. I got to handle one at the suppressor range day a few weeks ago, and I really like the form factor. But without getting to use one at night, I just can't say.

A friend of mine who has a full power PEQ 15 ordered one, and an HFXC, and after getting to mess with all three at once and compare them, he has stated that he's selling all of them and buying a MAWL, because only the MAWL does everything he wants an IR illuminator to do. I think that's hard to argue with, and the only problem there is paying MAWL prices.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
He has a Vortex Huey. It's not good for passive aiming. All sorts of optics have NVG settings nowadays. Only the Eotech (and MRDS, though I don't have personal experience) is truly usable. Even with his "Supergain" high-speed NVG tube, he was unable to see the targets through his Huey. My trusty ol' green, likely ten-year-old tube could see just fine through the Eotech.

I read this when you posted it and wanted to kind of let this percolate before I replied, because I have some thoughts about this. I disagree, but it's one of those "it depends" kind of things. I think the NV game entirely is a balance of expectations and compromises. When you say an optic is "not good" and then immediately follow it by stating that only the EXPS3 is "truly usable," I have to say those are two very different metrics.

I've used everything from a 2015 era Primary Arms red dot that has no NV settings whatsoever to an EXPS3 to shoot passively in the dark, and so far, I'd have to say all of them have been usable. It can be written off by saying I'm shooting with duals, but I went out in the back yard with every illuminated optic I have over the last few weeks and looked through them with the pod for my off eye articulated up and found that most of them were what I would call "usable," and a few being "good." I would put the Holosun AEMS right up there with the EXPS3, honestly. I don't think it gives up much, if anything to the EXPS3. Glass clarity is about the same to my eyes, and you get the added benefit of however many thousands of hours of battery life plus built-in clear lens covers. I like the AEMS a lot. The Primary Arms 1X Microprism, once fully dialed in, is also really good with a few added quirks: It can be set so that the illuminated reticle is both of a brightness that is clean and crisp under NV and also perfectly visible and usable in the dark with NODs flipped up. How this is possible, I don't know, but no other dot optic I've looked through manages to pull that off. My issue with the PA is that the diopter needs to be set first so that the optic is clearly visible through NV, and then to my eyes, the reticle is less crisp to when not looking through NODs, plus you have the fact that it's still not a true 1x. I've also shot through a variety of dot optics on guns friends have handed off to me at night shoots and I think they've all been "usable" though still varying degrees of "good." Those are different metrics to me.

The other thing here is a fallacy I've seen proliferated in the NV community that one is looking to get into NV, they should buy a PVS14 with the absolute highest specs and cleanest tube they can get. I think that's nonsense, and it comes directly from the builders and distributors. I have looked through everything from Jerry 31's to L3 24UM's and all points in between and my suspicion early on has only been strongly reinforced, and can be condensed thusly into the following:

1) If you have two eyes, then two tubes of lower specs are going to be better than any one tube of the highest spec. Duals are just better, period.

2) Any night vision is better than no night vision.

If you're starting off and really want to get the most use out of NV for the least money, then my advice is to skip entirely over the white phosphor marketing and buy a set of surplused ANVIS 6 or 9's and re-house them in any articulating dual tube housing. I see this routinely done for under four grand, and regularly see this exact setup show up on the market in newer housing for as little as three grand. You'll be into OMNI V-VII tubes with ANVIS specs, meaning minimal or no blems in zone 1, and low EBI and halo numbers. Your average user isn't going to be able to tell you the difference between an OMNI V tube and an OMNI VII, and the way government contracts and minim specs work, a given OMNI V tube may not actually spec any worse than a given OMNI VII tube. By the time you can actually tell the difference, you'll have spent hundreds of hours looking through them hiking, shooting, and stargazing in true steroscopic vision.


As for pistols, I wound up buying a basically brand new non-MOS Gen 5 Glock 17 for $450. I've decided I'm just going to choose from between a handful of dots I'm considering and get the sucker milled for whatever footprint that takes. I would just have it done in RMR, but the fact that the EFLX has such crazy clear glass and I liked it so much is the only reason I haven't just had that done already because it uses the DPP footprint.

A few months back, I emailed Holosun asking about repairs on a 407 that hit my concrete garage floor and cracked the front lens. It's one of their "Elite" models with an ostensibly titanium housing, but it cracked all the same. They told me that was not a workmanship problem and thus wasn't covered under warranty. I said I was merely asking if they could repair it. They said no, but offered me 15% off an open box unit. I asked if they'd apply that discount towards an AEMS, and they said they could only do a 1:1 replacement. I kind of understand their position, but if this were an Eotech, they'd have just fixed it. I'm really reconsidering buying any more Holosun optics going forward. Apparently this is an atypical experience, and most people say they just emailed them and Holosun replaces stuff that gets damaged and broken, so I don't know if this is a newer policy or what, but there it is. Despite how much I like the AEMS, I don't think I'm going to be buying another Holosun optic because if it breaks, you're basically shit out of luck.

quote:

When you say an optic is "not good" and then immediately follow it by stating that only the EXPS3 is "truly usable," I have to say those are two very different metrics.

Indeed. On that night, the bottom line was I could see the target to engage it passively with my green surplus PVS-14 and Eotech, and he couldn't. So, assuming my night vision isn't better than his, I can come to the conclusion that the Eotech is the superior passive performer (Though I didn't try his setup. His eyes might see different than mine). In exceptionally dark conditions is where these determinations are made. I have shot passively with dot optics other than the Eotech in the past. I have even shot passively with a dot optic that doesn't have NV settings. If the conditions are bright enough, the differences in performance are less noticeable. Where the lack of NV settings is concerned: if there's enough light pollution, a normal dot on it's lowest setting won't contrast enough against the target area to even seem inappropriately bright, and it'll be "usable"; but in dark conditions, it'll wash everything out.

I agree with your assessment of tube quality and duals vs mono.

On illuminator diffusing: I have wanted a diffuser cap for my PEQ15 for a long while. I just can't be made to part with the cash for such a tiny little thingy.

Last night, I did a hike with the guys halfway up a 3k foot mountain. We stopped because the footing was getting loose and iffy and it seemed prudent, but the spot where we stopped had a commanding view of the surrounding area. Visibility ranging out a few miles in one direction, with a valley in the other and the open desert floor for hundreds and thousands of yards.

It was prime conditions to test out some lasers and illuminators, so we did. We contrasted and compared the following:

Holosun Iris
Rovyvon GL 4 Pro
Chinese airsoft PERST 4 clone
Full power Eotech OGL
Weltool LH2

I figured the OGL would be the king shit. It was actually pretty disappointing, and the guy who brought it has owned it less than a week and has listed it for sale. The form factor is good, and I like the throw lever. I like the snap-on diffuser cap. On low mode, the laser is a little weaker than the laser on the GL4 Pro. On high mode, it's weaker than the Chinese PERST clone. The five power levels on the PERST clone start at more powerful than the low power setting of the OGL, and go on up to brighter than the OGL on high, which surprised all of us. I was putting a defined dot on mountain tops that the OGL was washing out on. The illuminator on low is kind of a joke, and on high, it's not horrible, but it doesn't compare to the D2 and MAWL, or honestly even come close. Decent little hotspot, but the edges aren't very defined and are kind of ragged. The guy who owns it has owned several FP PEQ 15's and has decided when he sells the OGL, that's what he's going back to. Plastic housing and it's big and all that, but he's really comfortable with the switchology and feels it's kind of the best in that regard. He was talking about picking up a MAWL, but that price tag is just stupid. $3,550 when I looked last night. That's a set of Omni duals if you look around.

So yeah, a civ powered OGL is simply not going to be worth the money in my opinion. It's a non-starter. No wonder they've seemingly forgotten all about bringing it to market and are just producing some limited full power units.

The Iris wasn't bad, but it wasn't the savior to the civilian LAM market it's been hyped as. The flood slider is backwards, in my opinion. The form factor can't be beat, and for the distances I'd be likely to use it at, it's probably more than good enough, but I don't particularly like it.

The Weltool LH2 still absolutely smokes everything I've compared it to as far as illumination, and I mean it's not even close. The OGL on high with the illuminator focused down was better than the LH2... with the safety cap on and the 3/16" hole I drilled in the center of it. I flipped that cap open and it was a genuine "holy shit" moment. I need to experiment with opening up that hole to something that makes it usable, because wide open, it's got too much flood and overpowers tubes with all the flood bouncing back at you. A different reflector in the head, or a Villain Weapons Systems external focuser on it would make it the budget king illuminator head.

I was thinking Z-Bolt shit the bed by waiting this long, but really, they may not be totally out of the running just yet iff they can get their act together and actually release the ACAL. At that $1,500 price point, if it performs the way the videos show and the way I've seen their other stuff perform in person, they may have a decent shot at being the winning choice on the civilian LAM market. Last I heard, they're now shooting for Q4 this year, and I'm sure that'll get pushed back to Q2 of next year. At this point, I'm treating it as "it would be nice if" vaporware, which... is basically what it's been for over two years now.

I need to try and liquidate some stuff and put together probably $1,500 in cash. I've seen a few DIR-V's pop up used for that or less, and if I can't snag one used, I need to jump on the next sale. Independence Day, maybe. Arisaka tends to knock a few hundred bucks off, and it looks like they're already starting to come down in price a bit. Last I looked, they were a hair over $2k, now they're $1,900. The GL4 Pro on a subgun is more than adequate, I just need a good rifle LAM now.

I am going to risk sticking my foot on my mouth. Because I am most decidedly not up to date on the latest IR laser and illuminators.


My experience shooting with IR lasers, full power is not always necessary or even preferable. The brightest lasers can bloom so much that they make it easy to lose the target, and require a paired illuminator to mitigate this issue.

I have a PAQ-4C and if it were half as bright, I would probably like it better.

I also have a little Steiner TOR mini-IR that I have used on both rifles and pistols. It has three brightness settings and I usually use it on low or medium.


I have not read this whole thread in detail and my observations could be way off on the newer lasers/lights and combinations thereof.

No, you’re absolutely correct. Full power lasers bloom a lot. Honestly, what I really want is a civ powered laser that has adjustable brightness, and a full power illuminator that has two or more brightness modes and an easily adjustable flood. It’s the illuminator that tends to suffer on civ powered units, and VCSEL was looking like the answer, but it has drawbacks as well, such as price and the fact that seemingly all of them have this weird thing where they leak light in almost a 180 degree throw out of the lens, which LED based emitters don’t do. It’s very apparent in some photos and video that even fully focused down, a lot of these VCSEL LAMs are illuminating the surrounding area, sometimes enough to gate tubes, depending on the surroundings.

Honestly, I’m still not convinced that a laser is all that necessary. It may be faster or more easy to shoot from weird positions in some scenarios, but if I had nothing but a good white light and an IR light that I could adjust the beam size and a high and low mode, I think I would be just fine. A dot optic mounted on about two inches of riser is good enough for me.

My commentary in my previous post was more along the lines of highlighting the fact that a Chinese made unit that goes for $120 was outclassing a US made restricted unit that goes for $3k. The US made LAM market is a steaming pile of horseshit with a red tape ribbon on it.

I agree. It has been discussed more than once before. I suppose the tricky part is the fact that, if illumination is added, the dot may be harder to pick-up, if it's a brightness that is pleasant without illumination.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
No, you’re absolutely correct. Full power lasers bloom a lot. Honestly, what I really want is a civ powered laser that has adjustable brightness, and a full power illuminator that has two or more brightness modes and an easily adjustable flood. It’s the illuminator that tends to suffer on civ powered units, and VCSEL was looking like the answer, but it has drawbacks as well, such as price and the fact that seemingly all of them have this weird thing where they leak light in almost a 180 degree throw out of the lens, which LED based emitters don’t do. It’s very apparent in some photos and video that even fully focused down, a lot of these VCSEL LAMs are illuminating the surrounding area, sometimes enough to gate tubes, depending on the surroundings.

Honestly, I’m still not convinced that a laser is all that necessary. It may be faster or more easy to shoot from weird positions in some scenarios, but if I had nothing but a good white light and an IR light that I could adjust the beam size and a high and low mode, I think I would be just fine. A dot optic mounted on about two inches of riser is good enough for me.

I struggle to shoot passively through my cheap holosun red dots. Lasers are the easy button for me, but at the cost of emitting. Which has tactical concerns that are unlikely to ever matter for me personally.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

My commentary in my previous post was more along the lines of highlighting the fact that a Chinese made unit that goes for $120 was outclassing a US made restricted unit that goes for $3k. The US made LAM market is a steaming pile of horseshit with a red tape ribbon on it.

100% agreement.

So, through some horse trading, I've acquired a legit full power PEQ-15 in pretty good shape. It's considerably cleaner than some of the ones I've seen pop up since I started paying attention. The only real bummer is it's not FDE, but black. Oh well.

I've messed with it some in the back yard a few times, and a few nights ago, I got to put it through the paces in canyon abutting a mesa. My impressions of it follow.

These things are massively overrated. Mine has the standard petri dish illuminator stuff, and according to Google Earth, at full power out to 700-800 yards, I was illuminating some saguaro and the laser was easy to make out, and yet... my friend's Somogear PEQ clone was every bit as bright, had just as powerful of a laser and illuminator in both power modes, had a much cleaner illuminator, had a more usable and very bright green laser for daytime cowitnessing, and only cost him a couple hundred bucks.

I say again: the US-made laser market is bullshit.

That said, I think I would prefer a DIR-V. Fewer modes to deal with, an ounce lighter, a cleaner illuminator that's better balanced with the laser, a green laser for daytime cowitnessing/zeroing, an ounce lighter, and a much, much lower profile. I wound up putting an Axon clone my friend had kicking around on my rifle purely because activating the PEQ with the top button, my thumb takes up the lower left third of the window of my EXPS. That's with a 2.26" riser height, no less. I have big hands, but damn. With the Axon clone, I can control the PEQ and the Surefire 340, which is nice, but it's moving my hand further back purely just to get around having my thumb in the optic window. It seems stupid to me that I have to choose between sight picture interference or switching up my offhand grip just to use an illuminator. I'd really rather just have something like a Hot Button for the scout light on the top rail right up against the back of the DIR-V and move my thumb over a little to hit a momentary on one or the other. That, or... do the unspeakable and actually throw down a huge wad of cash on a friggin' MAWL.

I say again: the US-made laser market is bullshit.

Regardless, this weekend, I'm shooting a PCSL NV match with it, and for once, it's a good feeling knowing that aside from the switch (which has worked fine and are reputed to be no-shit "just as good" as a Unity), everything on my rifle is finally US made, duty-grade stuff. If the switch goes tits up in the match, I can still use the buttons on both the PEQ and the white light and be just fine. This whole setup runs great.

Aside from that, we've stayed pretty busy this year. Averaging at least one big outing a month and lots of shorter hikes with 2-3 of the guys. We did a big shoot a few weeks back in a wash out in smuggler country. It's looking like the low light or no light NV matches are starting to catch on at a number of the bigger shooting facilities here and we'll probably get to do at least one a month through to spring time. The big factor is when sunset is. Around 6pm means a three hour window to get 40-50 shooters through four stages on time before the hard stop at Ben Avery at 9pm. Rumor is, there will be some trial runs at Phoenix Rod and Gun Club and Rio Salado as well, so we may end up having some choices all around the valley. Really looking forward to that. It's not a huge community compared to stuff like USPSA or even SASS (which is dying off), but it's bigger here than I would have guessed. I see a lot of the same faces at the events I've gone to over the last two years, so hopefully we can grow this enough to turn it into a regular thing, maybe get special allowances to go later than these facilities typically allow.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: P220 Smudge,

Did some shooting Sunday night for the first time in... a long time.

It was largely an unstructured, casual session with a core group totaling four. It's been talked-about before in this thread, and other training threads: many of the more "specialized" skills are perishable. Interaction with night vision equipment is certainly in that category.

My two big take-aways were from a little "course of fire" that had us engage a large white steel plate at about 50 meters from a braced position behind a low wall, and then stand up to move a few yards laterally and shoot three paper reduced silhouettes at twenty(ish) meters.

Turns out the large white target was INVISIBLE without illumination. Even though conditions were otherwise favorable for passive engagement, you couldn't see that white target unless you employed an illuminator to create contrasting shadows. That target necessitated laser/illuminator engagement.

The others didn't, so I engaged them passively. Passive is always the default.

Additionally, I did a fair bit of shooting with a new .300 Blackout build. I had largely ignored the caliber for about a decade, since I had sold one I had previously. Man, what a fool I have been. I always acknowledged the advantages of the caliber, but had justified writing it off due to ammo cost, and the fact that it didn't have the "practical" ubiquity of the 5.56. I had a 10" 5.56 that I really cared nothing for anymore. I used to be into the short barrel 5.56 stuff, but have now settled on 14.5 or longer as the 5.56 standard. So, I swapped the 10" 5.56 barrel with a 8.3" .300BLK for $150. It's silly quiet and slaps the steel pretty hard. I only ever intend to shoot subs with it, and have invested in an initial supply of Winchester open tip "range" ammo and Hornady SubX "performance" ammo.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

My brother and I have the identical rifle setups as our NV tasks are dispatching varmints and we can toss each other mags or batteries as needed.

The rats have taken to the freakin trees trying to get in the chicken cage. Now we have to shoot upwards with low power ammo. New moon and whisper quiet, they don't even notice their buddy drop to the ground.

The broiler houses I work in have become home to some rats in the past year. I use poison as a passive control tool, and myself with a chopped broom handle as an active one. A thermal-equipped .22 would be a good idea for me, with the low-power ammo for use inside the houses.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
The broiler houses I work in have become home to some rats in the past year. I use poison as a passive control tool, and myself with a chopped broom handle as an active one. A thermal-equipped .22 would be a good idea for me, with the low-power ammo for use inside the houses.

Inside the houses, thermal is useless. A green light and laser are king.

I should have been more specific. I meant in between flocks. Would the green light and laser still trump thermal then too?