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If You Carry A 1911: Do You Load Ball Or JHP? Login/Join 
Member
Picture of 4859
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
quote:
Originally posted by 4859:
Carrying FMJ for self defense in any caliber is just plain stupid.


I disagree, especially with the "in any caliber" portion. Generally, FMJ is not an ideal option. But there are a few reasons you might end up carrying FMJ, other than that you're just plain stupid:

1. FMJ is all you have available, or it's all that the only pistol you have available will feed reliably. FMJ bullets are better than no bullets.

2. Your only handgun available is chambered in a subpar caliber with marginal penetration, like .22 LR, .25 ACP, or .32 S&W. The extra penetration afforded by FMJ would be more useful than the marginally greater wound size afforded by JHP, in a situation like that. As above, any gun is better than no gun.

3. You're carrying the handgun for defense against large deadly animals, like bears. For example, while not traditional FMJ, most of the dedicated dangerous game handgun loads use solid metal, non-expanding bullets made from copper or hard cast lead. Not JHP. As above, in these situations as well, penetration trumps expansion.

4. You're limited to FMJ based on laws or policies.


Granted, I'm playing Devil's Advocate a bit, and these scenarios will be the exception rather than the norm. The ideal option if your handgun is in an inadequate caliber, or won't feed JHPs reliably, is to sell it and buy a different handgun in a better defensive caliber that will feed JHPs. And even in the military, the prohibition against expanding bullets is becoming blurred. Plus, for locations that prohibit JHP rounds, there are several styles of non-JHP expanding bullets available nowadays, like Hornady's various polymer-filled cavity bullets, Federal EFMJ, and Corbon Powerball.


Roll Eyes

When hollow points are plentiful in both loaded ammo and components it is foolish to make the choice to carry FMJ. It is plain stupid.


-----------------------------
Always carry. Never tell.
 
Posts: 5772 | Location: Montana  | Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
posted Hide Post
Cool. So the dangerous game guides carrying .44 or .454 revolvers with solid copper or hard cast rounds as a backup are stupid and/or foolish, because .44/.454 JHPs are available?

And the poor little old lady on a fixed income, whose only gun available to her is her late husband's .25 ACP pocket pistol, is stupid/foolish to load it with FMJ because .25 ACP JHPs are available?


These gel tests might be helpful before answering that last one. Keep in mind that the recommended minimum penetration for a defensive handgun is 12".

Gold Dot JHPs (inadequate penetration)


FMJ (barely adequate penetration)


Test source:
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot...parison-testing.html

Similar test results, using two different brands of .25 ACP JHP and FMJ:
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot...parison-testing.html

Additional testing showing 3 brands of .25 ACP JHP with inadequate penetration, and 2 brands of .25 FMJ faring marginally better:
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/...quacy/#axzz5mb9mnC5W

There are video tests available on YouTube with similar results.


Yes, in most calibers and situations, JHP is a much better option than FMJ. But there are valid exceptions.
 
Posts: 32411 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
I look at this kind of like the comments some people make suggesting such-and-such a calibre is inadequate for self-defence. Better the gun/round you have than the one you don't.

Or, put another way: Would you care to be shot with .45 ACP ball ammo? Wink

Given my druthers: Yes, I'd prefer JHP over ball for defence against two-legged critters. I also prefer my .40 S&W over my 9mm over my .380 ACP. I carry and shoot what I can.



"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
 
Posts: 25991 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That rug really tied
the room together.
Picture of bubbatime
posted Hide Post
Runs fine on Golden Sabre ammo? Then buy Golden Sabre by the case, and carry it.

https://www.targetsportsusa.co...s45apbb-p-76500.aspx


______________________________________________________
Often times a very small man can cast a very large shadow
 
Posts: 6660 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That rug really tied
the room together.
Picture of bubbatime
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 4859:
Carrying FMJ for self defense in any caliber is just plain stupid.


Disagree.

First and most important, is the gun reliable, with the ammo in it? If an older gun ONLY runs reliably on FMJ, then use FMJ ammo.

Second, not all hollow points are created equal. For instance, in .38 special, Hornady sells a lite 90 grain JHP, and advertises it as a low recoil load. Its a terrible load, and gets like 8-10 inches of penetration. A 158 grain lead semi wadcutter (non hollowpoint) would be superior in a defensive shooting to that light 90 grain JHP.

And FMJ .45ACP being terrible? Hardly. There is a large probability that it will put down a bad guy just fine.


______________________________________________________
Often times a very small man can cast a very large shadow
 
Posts: 6660 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
It may be my R1's issues with JHP were just break-in blues.

I brought Rem. Golden Saber, Hornady Critical Defense and Federal HydraShok Low-Recoil with me to the range today. The GS fed fine. No surprise there. The Hornady stuff also fed fine--which I expected, based on the bullet shape. But the Federal stuff, which had not fed the first round from a full mag reliably last Thursday, fed fine with both a stock mag and a Wilson mag today.

I'm debating going to the range again tomorrow, while the pistol's still good and dirty, to give the Speer Gold Dot and Winchester Silvertip another try. I suspect at least the Gold Dot will feed.

More curiosity than anything else. I think I'll stick with the Golden Saber, in any event. It fed reliably right out of the gate and has a good track record, from all I've read.

quote:
Originally posted by bubbatime:
Runs fine on Golden Sabre ammo? Then buy Golden Sabre by the case, and carry it.

https://www.targetsportsusa.co...s45apbb-p-76500.aspx

What I've been shooting is actually this: Remington Golden Saber 45 ACP AUTO Ammo 185 Grain Brass Jacketed Hollow Point

The +P version of it did well in Lucky Gunner's gel tests, as did the 230 gr. standard pressure version. This version is a bit over 100 fps slower and a bit more than 100 ft/lbs less muzzle energy than the +P. But it's 100 fps faster than the 230 gr. and has 30 ft/lbs more muzzle energy.



"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
 
Posts: 25991 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
Only the fudiest of fudds carry ball in a 1911. It’s 2019, it’s not 1978 anymore.

When I carry a 1911, it is either an Ed Brown or a Sig Nightmare. I rarely carry them with other than Ball.
Fudd
 
Posts: 627 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: October 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by fquico:
quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
Only the fudiest of fudds carry ball in a 1911. It’s 2019, it’s not 1978 anymore.

When I carry a 1911, it is either an Ed Brown or a Sig Nightmare. I rarely carry them with other than Ball.
Fudd

If that's what you have that's what you have. As I wrote, earlier: I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. That being said: Street Effectiveness of .45 ACP loads would suggest 45 ACP ball is quite a bit less effective than any common JHP load. (N.B.: I've no idea from where that page's stats were derived, so caveat emptor.)



"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
 
Posts: 25991 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Good, bad, I'm the
guy with the gun
Picture of 45ProCarry
posted Hide Post
JHP's for self defense. Wink
 
Posts: 2343 | Location: USA | Registered: May 03, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Old Air Cavalryman
Picture of ARMT Guy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by inspcalahan:
I'm surprised I haven't found anyone who loads the first round of each magazine with ball to use as a warm up when the gunfight starts... just kidding...


No way!

I load a tracer in mine! Razz




"Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying who shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, here am I, send me."




 
Posts: 7464 | Location: Georgia | Registered: February 19, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of ruger357
posted Hide Post
With that kind of accuracy, I would make it a competition gun. I would not carry a finicky gun or FMJs for self defense.


-----------------------------------------

Roll Tide!

Glock Certified Armorer
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
 
Posts: 7933 | Location: Hoover, AL | Registered: November 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I will fear no evil..
Psalm 23:4
posted Hide Post
Federal HST 230Gr. JHP
 
Posts: 947 | Location: NJ | Registered: September 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Certified All Positions
Picture of arcwelder
posted Hide Post
Holy shit guys.

Just stop.

Stop calling FMJ "foolish" and all this other horseshit.

Stop it.

Is FMJ more likely to overpenetrate? Yes. Is JHP less likely? Yes. What does this mean in the scope of carrying for self defense? Not a lot.

Carry the ammunition that functions in your weapon. Know your target and what is beyond. Try not to shoot innocent people.

Stop being fucks to eachother, and cut the crap.


Arc.
______________________________
"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash
"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman
Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM
"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

 
Posts: 27000 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
The Springfield "Loaded" 5" 1911 I bought a decade or so ago has always functioned great with any ammo I've tried in it, assuming I'm using decent quality magazines. With subpar magazines, I experience subpar performance, regardless of ammo choice.

I use Speer Gold Dot ammo when carrying it for self defense.


-------------
$
 
Posts: 7655 | Location: Mid-Michigan, USA | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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