If You Carry A 1911: Do You Load Ball Or JHP?

April 30, 2019, 11:17 AM

4859

quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
quote:
Originally posted by 4859:
Carrying FMJ for self defense in any caliber is just plain stupid.

I disagree, especially with the "in any caliber" portion. Generally, FMJ is not an ideal option. But there are a few reasons you might end up carrying FMJ, other than that you're just plain stupid:

1. FMJ is all you have available, or it's all that the only pistol you have available will feed reliably. FMJ bullets are better than no bullets.

2. Your only handgun available is chambered in a subpar caliber with marginal penetration, like .22 LR, .25 ACP, or .32 S&W. The extra penetration afforded by FMJ would be more useful than the marginally greater wound size afforded by JHP, in a situation like that. As above, any gun is better than no gun.

3. You're carrying the handgun for defense against large deadly animals, like bears. For example, while not traditional FMJ, most of the dedicated dangerous game handgun loads use solid metal, non-expanding bullets made from copper or hard cast lead. Not JHP. As above, in these situations as well, penetration trumps expansion.

4. You're limited to FMJ based on laws or policies.

Granted, I'm playing Devil's Advocate a bit, and these scenarios will be the exception rather than the norm. The ideal option if your handgun is in an inadequate caliber, or won't feed JHPs reliably, is to sell it and buy a different handgun in a better defensive caliber that will feed JHPs. And even in the military, the prohibition against expanding bullets is becoming blurred. Plus, for locations that prohibit JHP rounds, there are several styles of non-JHP expanding bullets available nowadays, like Hornady's various polymer-filled cavity bullets, Federal EFMJ, and Corbon Powerball.

When hollow points are plentiful in both loaded ammo and components it is foolish to make the choice to carry FMJ. It is plain stupid.

April 30, 2019, 11:38 AM

RogueJSK

Cool. So the dangerous game guides carrying .44 or .454 revolvers with solid copper or hard cast rounds as a backup are stupid and/or foolish, because .44/.454 JHPs are available?

And the poor little old lady on a fixed income, whose only gun available to her is her late husband's .25 ACP pocket pistol, is stupid/foolish to load it with FMJ because .25 ACP JHPs are available?

These gel tests might be helpful before answering that last one. Keep in mind that the recommended minimum penetration for a defensive handgun is 12".

Gold Dot JHPs (inadequate penetration)

FMJ (barely adequate penetration)

Test source:
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot...parison-testing.html

Similar test results, using two different brands of .25 ACP JHP and FMJ:
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot...parison-testing.html

Additional testing showing 3 brands of .25 ACP JHP with inadequate penetration, and 2 brands of .25 FMJ faring marginally better:
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/...quacy/#axzz5mb9mnC5W

There are video tests available on YouTube with similar results.

Yes, in most calibers and situations, JHP is a much better option than FMJ. But there are valid exceptions.

April 30, 2019, 11:46 AM

ensigmatic

I look at this kind of like the comments some people make suggesting such-and-such a calibre is inadequate for self-defence. Better the gun/round you have than the one you don't.

Or, put another way: Would you care to be shot with .45 ACP ball ammo?

Given my druthers: Yes, I'd prefer JHP over ball for defence against two-legged critters. I also prefer my .40 S&W over my 9mm over my .380 ACP. I carry and shoot what I can.

April 30, 2019, 07:19 PM

bubbatime

Runs fine on Golden Sabre ammo? Then buy Golden Sabre by the case, and carry it.

https://www.targetsportsusa.co...s45apbb-p-76500.aspx

April 30, 2019, 07:28 PM

bubbatime

quote:
Originally posted by 4859:
Carrying FMJ for self defense in any caliber is just plain stupid.

Disagree.

First and most important, is the gun reliable, with the ammo in it? If an older gun ONLY runs reliably on FMJ, then use FMJ ammo.

Second, not all hollow points are created equal. For instance, in .38 special, Hornady sells a lite 90 grain JHP, and advertises it as a low recoil load. Its a terrible load, and gets like 8-10 inches of penetration. A 158 grain lead semi wadcutter (non hollowpoint) would be superior in a defensive shooting to that light 90 grain JHP.

And FMJ .45ACP being terrible? Hardly. There is a large probability that it will put down a bad guy just fine.

April 30, 2019, 10:04 PM

ensigmatic

It may be my R1's issues with JHP were just break-in blues.

I brought Rem. Golden Saber, Hornady Critical Defense and Federal HydraShok Low-Recoil with me to the range today. The GS fed fine. No surprise there. The Hornady stuff also fed fine--which I expected, based on the bullet shape. But the Federal stuff, which had not fed the first round from a full mag reliably last Thursday, fed fine with both a stock mag and a Wilson mag today.

I'm debating going to the range again tomorrow, while the pistol's still good and dirty, to give the Speer Gold Dot and Winchester Silvertip another try. I suspect at least the Gold Dot will feed.

More curiosity than anything else. I think I'll stick with the Golden Saber, in any event. It fed reliably right out of the gate and has a good track record, from all I've read.

quote:
Originally posted by bubbatime:
Runs fine on Golden Sabre ammo? Then buy Golden Sabre by the case, and carry it.

https://www.targetsportsusa.co...s45apbb-p-76500.aspx

What I've been shooting is actually this: Remington Golden Saber 45 ACP AUTO Ammo 185 Grain Brass Jacketed Hollow Point

The +P version of it did well in Lucky Gunner's gel tests, as did the 230 gr. standard pressure version. This version is a bit over 100 fps slower and a bit more than 100 ft/lbs less muzzle energy than the +P. But it's 100 fps faster than the 230 gr. and has 30 ft/lbs more muzzle energy.

May 01, 2019, 02:09 AM

fquico

quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
Only the fudiest of fudds carry ball in a 1911. It’s 2019, it’s not 1978 anymore.

When I carry a 1911, it is either an Ed Brown or a Sig Nightmare. I rarely carry them with other than Ball.
Fudd

May 01, 2019, 10:20 AM

ensigmatic

quote:
Originally posted by fquico:
quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
Only the fudiest of fudds carry ball in a 1911. It’s 2019, it’s not 1978 anymore.

When I carry a 1911, it is either an Ed Brown or a Sig Nightmare. I rarely carry them with other than Ball.
Fudd

If that's what you have that's what you have. As I wrote, earlier: I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. That being said: Street Effectiveness of .45 ACP loads would suggest 45 ACP ball is quite a bit less effective than any common JHP load. (N.B.: I've no idea from where that page's stats were derived, so caveat emptor.)

May 01, 2019, 10:22 AM

45ProCarry

JHP's for self defense.

May 01, 2019, 11:27 AM

ARMT Guy

quote:
Originally posted by inspcalahan:
I'm surprised I haven't found anyone who loads the first round of each magazine with ball to use as a warm up when the gunfight starts... just kidding...

No way!

I load a tracer in mine!

May 02, 2019, 09:25 AM

ruger357

With that kind of accuracy, I would make it a competition gun. I would not carry a finicky gun or FMJs for self defense.

May 02, 2019, 06:40 PM

njauto

Federal HST 230Gr. JHP

May 02, 2019, 06:49 PM

arcwelder

Holy shit guys.

Just stop.

Stop calling FMJ "foolish" and all this other horseshit.

Stop it.

Is FMJ more likely to overpenetrate? Yes. Is JHP less likely? Yes. What does this mean in the scope of carrying for self defense? Not a lot.

Carry the ammunition that functions in your weapon. Know your target and what is beyond. Try not to shoot innocent people.

Stop being fucks to eachother, and cut the crap.