quote:

Originally posted by Tree Rat:



The .40 may wain a bit more in the future, but I wouldn't be surprised that we are only one high profile ammunition failure away that shifts the trend back the other way. Sorta fun witnessing the .40 living rent free in peoples head each time the viability of 9mm comes up as a topic.


TR

We are only a federal magazine ban away from .40 making a comeback. As a civilian if I could have 10 40's or 10 9's the choice was easy. Now you can stuff 17-20 rounds of 9 in a full size pistol.

quote:

Originally posted by jbourneidentity:
Chiefs and sheriffs continue to issue this unreliable combo without a second thought, right down to the Clinton-era pre-ban mags. Without the WML, they're reliable; with the WML, it's a TOTALLY UNRELIABLE combo. I spent 2-3 hours in maintenance with the Gen 3 G22/WML combo (installing 11-coil mag springs, updated G22 mag followers, new recoil springs, and Super Lube grease). This helped sometimes, but not always. The Gen 4 G22/WML combo is far more reliable, but not without problems if the officer is using older magazines.

Maybe, an instructor, at a regional academy (such as yourself?), could write a memo to all local chiefs/Sheriff's noting your observations and requesting, in your professional opinion, that such guns should be traded in and/or rebuilt and used without weapon lights? Note the importance of new recoil springs and 11 coil magazine springs, etc. Have all academy instructors sign the memo. Such a memo coming across the desk of a chief should raise awareness. They might not know of the problem, but could be persuaded with the right tone.

My agency went from the Model 65, to the P226 9mm, to the P226 .40. Our armorers are still very pro-.40. I don't care one way or another. There is not a caliber between 9mm and .45 that I would be uncomfortable carrying. Similarly, there isn't a maiden duty gun that I wouldn't be comfortable carrying (although I'd have a few preferences).

quote:

Originally posted by gaspipes:

quote:

Originally posted by Tree Rat:



The .40 may wain a bit more in the future, but I wouldn't be surprised that we are only one high profile ammunition failure away that shifts the trend back the other way. Sorta fun witnessing the .40 living rent free in peoples head each time the viability of 9mm comes up as a topic.


TR

We are only a federal magazine ban away from .40 making a comeback. As a civilian if I could have 10 40's or 10 9's the choice was easy. Now you can stuff 17-20 rounds of 9 in a full size pistol.

I agree with this, but I'll add a caveat. A high profile "9mm failure" (ala Miami FBI Firefight) will facilitate this, too. The 9mm is just held to a higher "stopping power" standard.

Please forgive the "ammo buzzwords" as this is no "caliber debate," but it is interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:

quote:

Originally posted by jbourneidentity:
Chiefs and sheriffs continue to issue this unreliable combo without a second thought, right down to the Clinton-era pre-ban mags. Without the WML, they're reliable; with the WML, it's a TOTALLY UNRELIABLE combo. I spent 2-3 hours in maintenance with the Gen 3 G22/WML combo (installing 11-coil mag springs, updated G22 mag followers, new recoil springs, and Super Lube grease). This helped sometimes, but not always. The Gen 4 G22/WML combo is far more reliable, but not without problems if the officer is using older magazines.

Maybe, an instructor, at a regional academy (such as yourself?), could write a memo to all local chiefs/Sheriff's noting your observations and requesting, in your professional opinion, that such guns should be traded in and/or rebuilt and used without weapon lights? Note the importance of new recoil springs and 11 coil magazine springs, etc. Have all academy instructors sign the memo. Such a memo coming across the desk of a chief should raise awareness. They might not know of the problem, but could be persuaded with the right tone.

Thank you, bubba. Believe it or not, I have actually done that. I've sent texts to individual administrators, written a 3 page summary right down to adding the spare parts numbers, I've spoken at our advisory board dinners with local chiefs/sheriffs, and made sure our recruits delivered this information back to their agencies. It honestly comes down to money and some of the older chiefs and sheriffs just don't trust the 9mm. The demons of Miami remain powerful.

We are seeing a change, but it is slow as molasses in wintertime.

I agree with those who have pointed out that we are only one major failure of a 9mm away from going to another caliber for police.

While I am amused that the Famous But Incompetent have declared 9mm to be deadly again and LE Agencies everywhere are jumping on the bandwagon, I am reminded of the off the record comments of FBI FTU director John Hall.

During the time that the FBI was trying to go with 10mm, Hall told several Agents that 45 was just as good but he could not go to Congress and ask for 45s after the US Military had just convinced them to drop 45s and go to 9mm.

And when asked about 9mm pistols Hall replied that if you went with a 9mm, you should go with a hi-cap holding 15 or 16 rounds. Because, IF you were getting hits, you would need them all to stop the threat.

Yes, 9mm has been improved. But so have all the other rounds too. Regards 18DAI

quote:

Originally posted by gaspipes:
We are only a federal magazine ban away from .40 making a comeback. As a civilian if I could have 10 40's or 10 9's the choice was easy. Now you can stuff 17-20 rounds of 9 in a full size pistol.

True! I decided a while back that if I have to deal with such a ban (and here in IL it's always a possibility), I'll just switch to a Glock 29. Ten rounds of 10mm, and if anybody asks, I can relate a quote from the 10mm thread here a couple years ago, that it will shoot through schools!

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
I agree with those who have pointed out that we are only one major failure of a 9mm away from going to another caliber for police.

While I am amused that the Famous But Incompetent have declared 9mm to be deadly again and LE Agencies everywhere are jumping on the bandwagon, I am reminded of the off the record comments of FBI FTU director John Hall.

During the time that the FBI was trying to go with 10mm, Hall told several Agents that 45 was just as good but he could not go to Congress and ask for 45s after the US Military had just convinced them to drop 45s and go to 9mm.

And when asked about 9mm pistols Hall replied that if you went with a 9mm, you should go with a hi-cap holding 15 or 16 rounds. Because, IF you were getting hits, you would need them all to stop the threat.

Yes, 9mm has been improved. But so have all the other rounds too. Regards 18DAI

The FBI get's far more respect than it deserves from both the public and law enforcement agencies.

Nice report, thanks.

I've gone back to the G17.5 and G19.5.

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
Yes, 9mm has been improved. But so have all the other rounds too. Regards 18DAI

Yes, but those other rounds haven’t improved even remotely close to as much as 9mm has. 9mm relies upon reliable expansion while achieving sufficient penetration for reliable incapacitation. The .45 isn’t nearly as dependent upon expansion due to its already larger diameter. .40 S&W due to its larger diameter and greater case capacity, also isn’t quite as projectile dependent, but it’s still a sizable compromise over the .45. I guess I’m saying that the 9mm is the most projectile performance dependent, followed closely by the .40 with the .45 being the least dependent upon projectile technology.

Projectile performance has come so far that when using modern projectiles there is no longer any doubt that the 9mm will expand well with good penetration. All that matters with handgun rounds is that a big enough permanent wound channel (ie caused by a wide enough projectile) penetrates deeply enough to cause massive bleeding in vital internal organs. Sufficiently deep penetration is probably the more vital component, as at least anecdotally shown by the respected performance of the .357 magnum which uses the same diameter projectile as 9mm Luger but with significantly higher velocity and penetration. With older 9mm loadings it was a bit of a crapshoot as to whether or not you would achieve sufficient expansion AND penetration. This same mechanism shows that bullet diameter gains reach a point of diminishing returns as well, especially considering that handguns can only generate so much energy while still being easily shootable. In other words at some point a wider projectile will lack sufficient energy to reliably penetrate to the vital organs and cause incapacitation.

I think it’s also worth noting that the .40 S&W came to being when bullet technology was also already starting to make significant gains. It’s entirely possible that the .40 S&W would not have performed significantly better than the 9mm did in Miami for example, had it been loaded with old school silver tips.

I guess, at least to me, if the action of the projectile from multiple different calibers will offer similar terminal performance then I’d rather have the lowest recoiling caliber. Capacity isn’t even as much an issue to me, although it’s undeniable that the 9mm offers distinct advantantages in that area as well. I’m personally quite confident that the best 9mm rounds will perform just as well as the best .40 rounds, so to me the .40 offers virtually no advantage over the 9mm. So to me even if I was limited to 10 rounds in my carry gun with either 9mm or .40, I would still take the 9mm. It’s more pleasant to shoot, in my experience more accurate and as far as I’m concerned completely equal in terminal performance. While the .40 unquestionably served a purpose and had its place, to me that is no longer the case. 9mm projectile performance has improved so much that I would personally only ever consider carrying 9mm or .45 ACP and would not consider carrying a .40 again for serious use.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:

quote:

Originally posted by Nelson Kyle K:
Why hasn’t any Highway Patrol or other agencies adopted the H&K VP9 or VP40 I have heard that quite a few Nevada State Trooper carry them as personal duty gun anyone carry them in Arkansas?

I'm hard pressed to think of any US agency issuing H&K's. (Other than Jack Bauer at CTU of course. )
That may be why they started putting the button mag releases on some of the VP9's.

Maine State Troopers carry HK .45's. I believe it's the HK45.

Sorry. I just don't buy the .40 as no advantage over 9mm nonsense. In equivalent projectile, a .40 will expand to a diameter about a tenth of an inch more than the equivalent 9mm. Doesn't sound like much? Do the math. That extra tenth of an inch works out to a 40% greater crush cavity cross sectional area (frontal area of the expanded bullet.) So for equivalent penetration, that's 40% more tissue destruction. And for pistol bullets, crush cavity tissue destruction is the only mode of incapacitation (as opposed to hydrostatic show, temporary cavity, etc.). That has to count for something.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:

<big snip>

I guess, at least to me, if the action of the projectile from multiple different calibers will offer similar terminal performance then I’d rather have the lowest recoiling caliber. Capacity isn’t even as much an issue to me, although it’s undeniable that the 9mm offers distinct advantantages in that area as well. I’m personally quite confident that the best 9mm rounds will perform just as well as the best .40 rounds, so to me the .40 offers virtually no advantage over the 9mm. So to me even if I was limited to 10 rounds in my carry gun with either 9mm or .40, I would still take the 9mm. It’s more pleasant to shoot, in my experience more accurate and as far as I’m concerned completely equal in terminal performance. While the .40 unquestionably served a purpose and had its place, to me that is no longer the case. 9mm projectile performance has improved so much that I would personally only ever consider carrying 9mm or .45 ACP and would not consider carrying a .40 again for serious use.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BBMW,

With Walther in Ft. Smith I'd think they'd be positioned to make at least some penetration into the LE market in that state. Is there none at all?

None that I've seen.

As far as a possible magazine ban, I would take 10 rounds of 9mm or 45 over 10 rounds of 40 In mt opinion both rounds 9mmand 45 are easier to shoot. Ymmv.

quote:

Originally posted by sigNull:
With Walther in Ft. Smith I'd think they'd be positioned to make at least some penetration into the LE market in that state. Is there none at all?

I've never seen a single PPQ M2 in an Arkansas duty holster, unfortunately.

My local USPSA club is a different matter!

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Sorry. I just don't buy the .40 as no advantage over 9mm nonsense. In equivalent projectile, a .40 will expand to a diameter about a tenth of an inch more than the equivalent 9mm. Doesn't sound like much? Do the math. That extra tenth of an inch works out to a 40% greater crush cavity cross sectional area (frontal area of the expanded bullet.) So for equivalent penetration, that's 40% more tissue destruction. And for pistol bullets, crush cavity tissue destruction is the only mode of incapacitation (as opposed to hydrostatic show, temporary cavity, etc.). That has to count for something.

Admittedly, I’m not an expert in ballistics and most of my knowledge was obtained from other people’s testing and research as opposed to my own. I have done a fair amount of testing of fragmentation effects and there are probably some similarities. In the case of the frag studies I’ve been involved in, we found that the actual mechanism affecting what I was researching was usually more complicated than we had hypothesized. My guess is that the same applies in this case as well. Perhaps the smaller size and weight of the 9mm projectile allows for more retained velocity and therefore more continued expansion, or perhaps there’s something else altogether going on. I will say that anecdotally there didn’t seem to be a remarkable difference in appearance of 9mm, .40 or .45 bonded slugs pulled from ballistic gelatin. 9mm expanded more than .40 or .45 and the overall expanded projectile was very similar in size regardless of caliber. I still feel that I give up little to nothing with the 9mm over the .40 in terms of ballistic performance and end up with a more accurate, more shootable caliber.