quote:

Originally posted by Tree Rat:
On the other hand, don't understand this desire to marginalize the 40 when justifying 9mm. Overall I believe the 40 is still a better performing round in terms of terminal performance. Think its silly to infer advances in bullet technology only benefitted the 9mm, and not 40.

Of course those advances benefitted other cartridges. I think that goes without saying. The issue with older 9x19mm was that very often, they failed to expand at all. I don't think the .40 S&W suffered from this malady to nearly as great a degree. It would be correct to say that advances in hollowpoints benefitted the 9x19 more. Additionally, much of the hollowpoint ammunition for the 9x19 was 115 grain, or sometimes 100 grain or even 90 grains (and American cartridge companies were wary of their ammo being used in ancient 9mm pistols, so they loaded their cartridges on the anemic side). I think if one looks at the data, the 124, 135 and 147 grain hollowpoints penetrate substantially deeper (with expansion) in both ballistic gel and human targets. This is especially important for the police, who may be taking cross-torso shots, or shooting through automobile glass. It wasn't just poor expansion that plagued the 9x19. It was penetration, too. It seems to me that in the case of the .40 S&W, the bullet weights used at the time of its introduction are essentially that they are today- 165 grain and 180 grain, with lighter and heavier weights available.

quote:

Ditto comparing the reliability and performance of old Gen 3 Glocks paired with a known bad light interface, is a fair comparison with later Glock generations, the 320 platform or others.

But the problem still exists. New, old- it doesn't matter. The point is that polymer pistol frames flex, and the additional recoil of the .40 when compared to the 9x19 causes flexing to the point of interrupting the feeding cycle of the pistol. The evidence of this abounds, both within and outside of this thread. When I mentioned the early Gen3/Surefire combination, it was to illustrate that this has been a problem for as long as people have been hanging WMLs off of .40 Glocks.

This is the reality of the situation. Here we are, decades on, and this problem persists. So, we have pistols that have lower capacity than their 9mm counterparts, more muzzle rise than their 9mm counterparts, demonstrate no actual ballistic advantage in 2019 over their 9mm counterparts, and have a high risk of malfunctions during the most dire circumstances for the police officer and armed citizen.

It simply makes no sense to me, none at all. I'm completely serious when I say get rid of the .40.

quote:

Originally posted by Nelson Kyle K:
Why hasn’t any Highway Patrol or other agencies adopted the H&K VP9 or VP40 I have heard that quite a few Nevada State Trooper carry them as personal duty gun anyone carry them in Arkansas?

It also seems like Beretta has all but disappeared in the LE Business I hope things will pick up since they now have a striker fire with the APX.

Marketing, price point, mainstream popularity.

... Also price, duty holster availability, cost, armorer accessibility, budget, and manufacturer responsiveness.

(I'm pretty sure money's involved in the consideration as well, at some point.)

I don't know of any Arkansas departments using the HK VP guns. A quick Google turned up a couple smaller departments around the country, though.

I wonder what the California Highway Patrol will go to when they finally retire their old Smith and Wesson 4006's.

quote:

Originally posted by elberettas:
I wonder what the California Highway Patrol will go to when they finally retire their old Smith and Wesson 4006's.

Ummmmm, they started transition two years ago to the M&P.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by elberettas:
I wonder what the California Highway Patrol will go to when they finally retire their old Smith and Wesson 4006's.

Ummmmm, they started transition two years ago to the M&P.

Oh wow! Every time I see a CHP officer, I still see the old 3rd Gen. Smith in their holster.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by jbourneidentity:

quote:

Originally posted by Watergoat:
Is anybody still using .357Sig?

Side-note: A friend of mine at that agency was recently cleared in an OIS, so I can mention it now. He was shot in the chest at point-blank range with a 9mm FMJ. Officer was wearing 2 panels in his exterior tac vest. The first panel (out of date) was easily penetrated; the second panel (new) stopped the bullet. My friend said the pain from the 9mm FMJ was excruciating and that he couldn't breathe. He returned fire from a distance of about 3-4 feet and hit the suspect in the chest and face with the .357 Golden Saber. I saw the post-mortem pics, and the injuries to the felon were horrific, to say the least.

I'd like to know a little more about this. I've never known soft armor to fail just because it was out of date. Do you have any more detail?

Sure. The police chief involved in the OIS is a former FAM, which is why he and his agency carry .357 Sig. Most naturally gifted shooter I've ever seen. Won top shot in his FAM class. Was actually a finalist for appearing on the old show, "Top Shot," but was passed over in the last selection phase. Squared away shooter.

He'd been dealing with an emotionally-disturbed person (EDP) for weeks after the EDP got mad at him for not shaking his hand at a city council meeting after the EDP became disorderly. EDP had revenge on his mind against the chief. A few days before the shooting, the chief gave one of his new tac vest panels to a patrol officer who he felt, "needed it more." This left the chief with one new panel, which was in the front (both front and back panels in this vest are the same dimensions). The chief then put the patrol officer's outdated panel on top of the new panel on the front of his tac vest as a measure of additional ballistic protection.

The EDP was seen by the chief shadowing another officer's traffic stop. The chief had an unfriendly chat with the EDP. Later, the EDP asked for the chief to come to his small travel trailer. The EDP asked the chief to come inside, but the chief is a large man (6-5, 240) and remained outside. The EDP stepped inside briefly "to get something," as a mosquito netting with magnets in it (to stop the government radio waves) fell down over the door. As the netting fell over the door and the chief remained outside at the door, the EDP fired a single round of 9mm FMJ which struck the chief directly in the chest from a distance about about 3 feet. The chief drew his Glock 31 and put a .357 Sig Golden Saber in the EDP's chest and another in his head at the T-Zone. The chief said he heard the EDP groan with the first shot, drop his pistol, and fall with the second. EDP never moved again.

The chief went back to his car, to a knee, and struggled to regain his breath. A neighbor heard the shots and rendered aid to the chief, getting on his radio and letting others know shots had been fired. The chief told me the pain was excruciating...like a baseball bat. So much so that he thought it was a .40. It was later learned that it was a Federal 115-grain FMJ. I can't remember the pistol make.

The first panel in the chief's vest was made in 2005, so it's 14 years old. This may be shocking to some, but not to me. Typical. The vest had also had nearly two decades of exposure to rain, cold, sweat, heat, moisture, mosquito spray, humidity, UV light, etc. 2-5 years expired is not that big of a deal. Being 14 years old is, so I wasn't surprised that the outdated panel was compromised by the 9mm FMJ, which penetrates very well.

A few years ago, during some independent testing at our academy against soft body armor using various calibers, the 9mm +P+ 127-gr. Winchester SXT penetrated more panel layers than any other projectile, including .40 an 125-grain .357 Magnum.

Side-note: The chief is a good tactician. He is well aware that he made a terrible mistake by letting the EDP go into the trailer. He beats himself up about it regularly.

Sorry for the long reply. I hope this info helps, and I've provided a link to the story, if that is okay.

https://wreg.com/2018/08/03/of...reported-in-trumann/

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
Very interesting thread JBourne. It kind of amazes me when I see guys argue about the 9 vs. 40 and how superior the 40 is to the 9 despite all the ballistic evidence to the contrary. A Navy SEAL summed it up best IMHO when he said on another forum that "the 9mm is where it's at. Everything else is just chatter".

Yes, sir. I have a buddy in 5th Group SF. He is now the commander of the US Army's Marksmanship Unit. Great guy. He said the same thing about the 9mm in the field when he was being deployed. He said his guys were very pleased with the 9mm in real world applications. He is a fan. I take what he says very seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by Nelson Kyle K:
Why hasn’t any Highway Patrol or other agencies adopted the H&K VP9 or VP40 I have heard that quite a few Nevada State Trooper carry them as personal duty gun anyone carry them in Arkansas?

It also seems like Beretta has all but disappeared in the LE Business I hope things will pick up since they now have a striker fire with the APX.

Ironically, I just qualified a constable on the Arkansas LE course this afternoon, and the VP9 is his personally-owned duty weapon. His is the only one I've ever seen in an LE holster in this state. I think $50 magazines and a low profile hurt the VP9 here. The last Beretta I saw in an LE holster here was about 2 years ago (PX4 Storms in .40) before that agency went to P320s with great success. I've never seen an APX in police hands here. I hope that changes soon.

Glock rules Arkansas LE in all calibers, but the P320 has made a small splash lately, even more so than the M&P, which I see only rarely these days.

With a 2005 panel, I wonder if it was Zylon? That happened around then. I had one. Most comfortable vest I ever wore. Stopped everything we shot at it against an earthen berm after being recalled.

quote:

Originally posted by Watergoat:
Is anybody still using .357Sig?

Maine game wardens carry P226 357

It’s funny how caliber trends change in LE. My academy in 1994 had no issue weapons, all personally owned. All were 9mm, 40 and 45. 45 were 2-P220 and one 1911. All 40 were Glock 22 except one 4043. 9mm were my Glock 19 and a bunch of 92FS. I was issued a G22 from 98-01 with 180 Black Talons issued no lights in 6280 holsters. The department I went to after issued 40 duty ammo but no gun and if you wanted to carry something else you provided all ammo. It’s nice to see so many issuing guns and gear now and hopefully it won’t change but another Miami could swing it all back to bigger bullets.

quote:

I'm hard pressed to think of any US agency issuing H&K's.

One local agency to me, Bellevue PD, has as their official department-issued sidearm the HK P30 (which caliber and variant(s) is however unknown by me).

Unless I'm missing something, I think the Border Patrol issues the P2000.

quote:

Originally posted by Watergoat:
Is anybody still using .357Sig?

Virginia State Police uses 357 Sig and is transitioning from P229 to P320.

Boston PD uses Glock 22,23&27 Gen 4 and just dispatched another didn’t do nuffin who shot a cop two weeks ago with .40 no issues there.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
Unless I'm missing something, I think the Border Patrol issues the P2000.

You are correct!

The Nevada Highway Patrol and Las Vegas PD has Troopers And Officers that carry the VP9 and VP40 as well as other Heckler & Koch models on the approval list I would certainly carry an H&K as well as a FN also.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by elberettas:
I wonder what the California Highway Patrol will go to when they finally retire their old Smith and Wesson 4006's.

Ummmmm, they started transition two years ago to the M&P.

.40 Cal for CHP, FWIW.

quote:

Originally posted by Watergoat:
Is anybody still using .357Sig?

Lots of officers do, although there aren't nearly as many agencies issuing them as they used to.

I still carry .357 Sig. It shoots flatter and more accurately than .40 S&W, and is actually far easier for follow-up shots because the straight back recoil is better than the muzzle flip you get with the .40. Plus, .357 Sig is still ballistically superior to any .40 or 9mm LE round, even though there are now some VERY good 9mm choices.

All that being said, I wouldn't feel terribly outgunned if I had to go back to 9mm, as long as it was either Hornady Critical Duty or Speer Gold Dot +P. Both have excellent real-life track records.