quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

You mean bullseye type shooting doing slow fire at distance? Jerking the trigger right when the dot is on the target?

Yep, that's exactly what I am doing!

Defending myself in that close (under 5 yards)

sure that's sometimes what you have to do. But in that case no sighting system of any kind is needed. I prefer to engage (if at all possible) at longer ranges and get good results. For that having an optic is a huge plus, and a minimal downside.

Optics users..... at what distances to you start seeing noticeable performance improvements?

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
Defending myself in that close (under 5 yards)

sure that's sometimes what you have to do. But in that case no sighting system of any kind is needed.

That definitely mitigates the downside to having an optic on a pistol. While an optic may not help, it shouldn't hurt anything either.

Well inside of 10y I'm not really aiming. But at 10y for me it depends on the number of rounds. the first one on the optic is a bit slower but everyone after is way faster and more accurate. The breakeven on my splits is about 6rounds. anything after 10y the optic wins no matter the number of rounds. and when you get to 25y the difference is massive.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Optics users..... at what distances to you start seeing noticeable performance improvements?

That depends on what task you have at hand.
2 inch circles, 5-7 yards.
Moving targets, B-8 black/A-zone, depends on the speed of target's movement, but about 7+ yards.
Shooting on the move, real foot speed, B-8 black/A-zone, about the same.
Shot calling, any distance.

In what context is 2" circles at 5-7 yds relevant. I can't actually think of one?

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
In what context is 2" circles at 5-7 yds relevant. I can't actually think of one?

There's a classic performance drill, called Garcia Dots, shot at 2 inch dots at 7 yards. A very difficult one and an excellent test of skills.
In a defensive context, a brainstem area / ocular window is about 3x5 inches so a bit larger but not an aimless high probability shot either. The dot makes that easier too over irons, at least in my hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

You mean bullseye type shooting doing slow fire at distance? Jerking the trigger right when the dot is on the target?

Yep, that's exactly what I am doing!

LOL. Yea, I've been known to do that too. The fix for me, according to 9mmE is a larger dot size than the POA.

What's your criteria for successful training shooting performance for defensive shooting? How many rounds, in how much space in how much time. And can you do this successfully without explicitly using the sights?

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
In what context is 2" circles at 5-7 yds relevant. I can't actually think of one?

I did not vote because for me, the jury is still out!

I occasionally still carry an older Browning Hi Power with blacked out rear sights and a polished brass bead up front. (The predecessor to tritium)!

Last Spring or Summer, I picked up a Sig P320 Compact with a Romeo I Pro. About 3-4 weeks later the optic went dark. A quick battery replacement was all it needed, but it concerned me enough that I'm still not trusting this package.

Right now, the gun I feel most comfortable with is my P229 DAK in .357 Sig topped off with Trijicon HD XR sights with the bright orange ring surrounding the tritium front dot.

I voted "maybe" but by own preference would still be highly visible day/night sights like the Trijicon HDs or many made by Ameriglo. I just don't practice enough with pistol optics and have sold them all except for a Trijicon RMR mounted on my Gen 3 G26. I do think the RMR makes me shoot slightly better at distances past 15 yards, but there are still occasions when I have trouble finding the dot for a very short time. I'm sure more practice would fix that, but I don't think it's necessary for me since at 15 yards and nearer, I don't notice much advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by T.Webb:
Last Spring or Summer, I picked up a Sig P320 Compact with a Romeo I Pro. About 3-4 weeks later the optic went dark. A quick battery replacement was all it needed, but it concerned me enough that I'm still not trusting this package.

The range I'm working at now has a small number of rental pistols fitted with optics. There are days when none of them are working. The most "reliable" one shed a mount bolt, probably due to lack of Loctite. None the less, I can't find myself trusting optics on pistols to the point where I'll use them on fighting handguns. It's ironic, all my defensive rifles have RDS, but I'm thinking that rifle-sized optics have at least a decade of refinement over the pistol-sized optics currently out.

But hey, whatever gets you hits.

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:

It's ironic, all my defensive rifles have RDS, but I'm thinking that rifle-sized optics have at least a decade of refinement over the pistol-sized optics currently out.

But hey, whatever gets you hits.

I'm sure even the rifle-sized optics would have more issues if mounted on reciprocating picatinny rails.

I have a Hellcat with a Swamp Fox optic. I also have a Hellcat without an optic. After about 300 rounds, I have retired the optic mounted pistol in favor of the iron sights. Irons, for me, are faster than the optic and I don't have the ammo or willingness to train enough to change that.

That goes to the question of reliability and durability. Has this proven to be a problem with slide mounted optics, at least name brand ones? I'm not hearing too many complaints about red dots going belly up.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:

It's ironic, all my defensive rifles have RDS, but I'm thinking that rifle-sized optics have at least a decade of refinement over the pistol-sized optics currently out.

But hey, whatever gets you hits.

I'm sure even the rifle-sized optics would have more issues if mounted on reciprocating picatinny rails.

While comfortable with both options my EDC is 365XL with Romeo and also have 320RX. With aging eyes the dot is easier for me if I can stay focused on the dot and not trying to cowitness the irons. Training I think will help me not get distracted when presenting the weapon.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
That goes to the question of reliability and durability. Has this proven to be a problem with slide mounted optics, at least name brand ones? I'm not hearing too many complaints about red dots going belly up.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:

It's ironic, all my defensive rifles have RDS, but I'm thinking that rifle-sized optics have at least a decade of refinement over the pistol-sized optics currently out.

But hey, whatever gets you hits.

I'm sure even the rifle-sized optics would have more issues if mounted on reciprocating picatinny rails.

I believe most top manufacturers have addressed this. In general, I still believe optics that reciprocate will have a shorter service life.
How many here have had to send their handgun optic back for service?

Not for me.
LEO, military, bullseye shooter yea.
Self defense is close range so for me sights are good enough.

A long shot probably won't be considered self defence.

Pistol Optics have come a long way.
I was lucky enough to get a sneak peek at the latest cutting edge technology. In 1985 that is.

Here is some Wilson Combat Accu-Comp LE with Tasco ProPoint action for your viewing pleasure.