quote:

Originally posted by Ordnance Outsell:
Hoser, sorry too busy with last minute Christmas shoppers to look for you right now; but if doj says "220 stainless" that should be it? If I recall correctly, "226ST" was just called "226 stainless".

Hope this helps?

I confirm. I just checked the list - it's called "P220 (Stainless) / Stainless Steel".

it's there, i got 2 last year trying to beat the expiration of their approval...then they extended another year

So no other models work, like the SAO compact or other?

Hoser, only full size 220ST or ST Elite will work according to Bruce Gray!

Would that mean ONLY the stainless version of the ELITE or ANY of the ELITE line?

Sorry, just want to be 100% sure of my shopping options!

it has to be a 220
it has to be full sized
it has to have the standard sized barrel
it has to have a stainless steel frame

Thanks -- that'll do it!

Hoser, while it's theoretically possible to create an alloy-framed version of our P220 10mm, we're constrained by our concerns for durability. We're rating our stainless-framed, full size P220 10mm's for primary use with standard mid-velocity loads, and for occasional use with the hot full-on 10mm Norma stuff. I'll use this as an opportunity to clarify our thinking on 10mm loadings again.

An example of the former would be the Remington green-box 180 grain FMJ training ammo and similar loadings, which cook along at about 1150 fps. This yields a power factor that's still greater than 230 ball from a .45 ACP. Our 10mm will eat this stuff reliably and with great control, and you can expect a normal service life for an equivalent .45 with these moderate, if still very punchy loads.

Perhaps my favourite 10mm carry load is the Federal Hydra-Shok 180. With a velocity of around 1050, this load offers a higher power factor, greater sectional density & better barrier penetration, a flatter trajectory and equalivalent shootability to a full-power 185 grain .45 ACP load.

Winchester's 175 grain Silver Tip is typical of full-power 10mm Norma loads from the major ammunition makers. It runs along at 1290 FPS. Let's not be seduced by macho posturing: These full-on loads are hard on the shooter, the gun and whatever they hit. We suggest you reserve these loads for function proving and occasional use where a lot of power is required, and not for training.

Beyond this, there are some truly scary 10mm loads available from a few of the smaller commercial ammo makers. Buffalo Bore will sell you a 180 grain Speer bullet at 1350 fps. Yikes. We've tested our prototype with this stuff and it ran, but my word! That's really not a loading that I'd want to shoot many of from any 10mm pistol.

So, yes, while we could possibly build an alloy framed 10mm, we couldn't warranty it for acceptable durability and reliability with anything beyond the tamer factory "10mm light" loadings. Remember, the lightest factory 10mm loads are still equivalent to or hotter than .45 ACP combat ammo, with much superior overall ballistics.

Durability and service life is hugely important to us as it should be to our customers, when seen in the proper context of the very powerful caliber we're dealing with here. I don't think you'd want to pay good bucks for a lightweight 10mm with a truncated service life.

Perhaps such an alloy framed P220 conversion would be reasonably durable with the moderate Federal loading I like (and I think it would, actually...), but I can't imagine it'll run for an "acceptable" number of rounds of full-on 10mm before the slide to frame fit goes away. And Buffalo Bore? No way.

That's why we are building on the stainless guns, and why I am pushing the moderate stuff for the bulk of your shooting with our new 10mm blowers.

I hope this helps frame our conservative, and hopefully responsible approach to this caliber and conversion. Thanks!

-Bruce

I have always thought that a carbon steel frame and slide would be optimal for a 10mm rendition of the p220.

Would SigSauer entertain a special run for that purpose?

I find it interesting that my p220st has a hardened steel plate set beneath the locking block.

Regards
Billy

quote:

Originally posted by BillyBonesNY:
I have always thought that a carbon steel frame and slide would be optimal for a 10mm rendition of the p220.

Would SigSauer entertain a special run for that purpose?

I find it interesting that my p220st has a hardened steel plate set beneath the locking block.

Regards
Billy

A simple material change to carbon steel wouldn't be that simple, unfortunately, and I don't forsee SIG Sauer wanting to do that for us, much less for their own production.

So, we go with what we have and we take steps to prolong service life with the stainless frame through careful building on our part, and reasonable care & feeding on our customers' part.

-Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

quote:

the finest 10mm "single shot" in existence!

i thought that title was already taken by the Bren 10

If anybody needs magazines for their "single shot BREN TEN" I can help, but the tarrif is pretty steep, about $150 per.

I have seven of the Brens in various configurations and when the real estate market turns around, I hope to add the finest Sig 10mm to the stable!

Thanks everyone.

So are these ready to start conversions yet? I'd like to look for a P220ST and send one up if you've started.

I just got a Glock 20, and have shot some reloads thru it which have chrono'd at around 1300fps for 165gr JHP projectiles. The recoil of this is managable, the gun has not complained....I dont plan on watering it down just because it may effect the service life. The whole point of 10mm auto is that you have a tack driver the same size as a .45!! If I did shell out for the Grayguns 10mm I would predominantly use full power stuff too, because that is what 10mm owners want. If we wanted something less powerful we would just buy a 45 or 40SW....right? While I understand that you dont want to end up with repair jobs all over the place Bruce, I cant help but feel that you are discouraging people from shooting the buffalo bore and double-tapp ammo that has recently stoked the fire under 10mm auto enthusiasts who will be buying your pistol..

Bottom line its gotta take a real hammering, because people WILL reload them to the limits of 10mm cases AND feed them the nuclear stuff -same as they do for every other gun chambered for 10mm auto.

I dont mean to bag on the grayguns iteration, i'm just saying that the whole point of 10mm auto is to shoot hot ammo. Cant say that for many other autopistol calibers can you. People dont buy 10mm autopistols because its nice to look at.....so designing it and not always using full power ammo is silly. IMO.

quote:

The whole point of 10mm auto is that you have a tack driver the same size as a .45!!

i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here ...

1. that the 10mm is more accurate than the .45ACP?...this hasn't been my experience

or

2. that the 10mm isn't smaller than the .45 ACP?...i do believe that there is a measurable difference

quote:

so designing it and not always using full power ammo is silly

well then i guess that the original Bren 10 was silly. the original design was taken from jeff cooper's desire for a .40 calibre, 200gr slug, driven at approx 1000fps chambered in a pistol with the ergos of the CZ-75.

they got carried away and followed the craze to "magnumized" it. it was similar to the situation of the .41 magnum chambering in the S&W M-58 M&P

this project is addressing a desire from folks to own a sig chambered in 10mm...to save the kittens

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

quote:

so designing it and not always using full power ammo is silly

well then i guess that the original Bren 10 was silly. the original design was taken from jeff cooper's desire for a .40 calibre, 200gr slug, driven at approx 1000fps chambered in a pistol with the ergos of the CZ-75.

they got carried away and followed the craze to "magnumized" it. it was similar to the situation of the .41 magnum chambering in the S&W M-58 M&P

this project is addressing a desire from folks to own a sig chambered in 10mm...to save the kittens

No way man, forget the kittens. Its about being able to shoot 10mm auto thru a sig. And anyone who owns a 10mm doesn't want it to shoot soft ammo. This is why I said they should always use hot ammo, because that would just be smart. Otherwise if they dont it might end up with problems because it was designed around the softer loads. Surely you can see the logic in this.

quote:

Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

quote:

The whole point of 10mm auto is that you have a tack driver the same size as a .45!!

i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here ...

1. that the 10mm is more accurate than the .45ACP?...this hasn't been my experience

or

2. that the 10mm isn't smaller than the .45 ACP?...i do believe that there is a measurable difference

Its got nothing to do with accuracy, dont know how you got to that - and no, the glocks are both the same frame size (excluding the SF) 45 & 10mm. But I am not talking about glocks directly just about 10mm pistols in general. And the P220 is a full size frame, normally in 45 isn't it

As you probably know, there are few guns chambered in 10mm that are smaller than a 1911 (45) or full size frame glock that can handle the 10mm in full power loads. Bar the G29, that means whatever you get will most likely be a full size pistol.

If you didn't care about shooting powerful calibers like 10mm auto, you might as well get a less powerful one like 40 or 45ACP. Understand now? Or still confused?

Lets be honest, when someone mentions 10mm auto....do you think of soft ammo? Probably not. Sure you might think of Sigforum and kittens.....but not soft ammo thats for sure!

So, to more directly return your comments - no, it isn't about accuracy or the size of the gun.


I think ive made my point about 4 different ways now so if you didn't get what i was trying to say.....its a lost cause.

Bruce, thanks for recommendations of what to "feed" the new baby! Was wondering about this!

Merry Christmas and a happy, healthy, prosperous, New Year to you and the gang!
Of course, same goes for all on this board, too!

The lighter stuff is plenty against 2-legged bad vermin.

I was thinking about using a MODERATE amount of heavy stuff, like the hard cast Double Tap 230gr loads. I was looking at this as a possible camping gun (double action, light attachment, fairly compact and super reliable) as backup to pepper spray against small black bear.

quote:

Originally posted by SIG_NZ:
If we wanted something less powerful we would just buy a 45 or 40SW....right?

I'm with SIG_NZ on this one. I already have a .45 and a .40. If I wanted to shoot 180g bullets at 1050fps, I'd go with hot .40s. The reason that I like the 10mm caliber is because it provides muzzle energies between a .357Mag and a .41Mag out of an auto-loader that can be easily carried on your hip. I like the idea of having that kind of firepower in a Sig. I've already ordered Bruce's conversion and, while I don't intend to abuse it, I'm not going to baby it either.