quote:

Its got nothing to do with accuracy, dont know how you got to that - and no, the glocks are both the same frame size (excluding the SF) 45 & 10mm.

oops i misunderstood, when you said the same size...i thought you were refering to the same size bullet/calibre

i'm still thrown off by your statement about "tack driver" not refering to accuracy.

isn't that what the term means? to be so accurate, that you could drive a tack with it

So is this package/service available NOW? If so, I need to look for my base gun!

quote:

Originally posted by hoser:
Thanks everyone.

So are these ready to start conversions yet? I'd like to look for a P220ST and send one up if you've started.

Thank you! We've filled our first set of orders and have asked Bar-Sto to make a second run of 20 barrels for this project. We'll start building the first 17 customer guns in January, as promised. I believe we'll be able to accept new 10mm orders by March or so, but consider yourself "in" and be sure to remind Flork that I puit you on the second list when you send in your gun for conversion. Thanks again!

-Bruce

quote:

As you probably know, there are few guns chambered in 10mm that are smaller than a 1911 (45) or full size frame glock that can handle the 10mm in full power loads. Bar the G29, that means whatever you get will most likely be a full size pistol.

If you didn't care about shooting powerful calibers like 10mm auto, you might as well get a less powerful one like 40 or 45ACP. Understand now? Or still confused?

Lets be honest, when someone mentions 10mm auto....do you think of soft ammo? Probably not. Sure you might think of Sigforum and kittens.....but not soft ammo thats for sure!

Sig NZ, I dont think anyone here is having any trouble understanding your point... The problem that I am having with your posts is that you are making some broad sweeping assumptions about what people might want in a 10mm gun. I have a 10mm that I love shooting... I have ran some hot stuff through it, and that was ok. However, when I load my own ammo, I make it a bit on the light side. When I shoot for fun, I shoot lighter ammo through the gun. I do this because it is more controlable, easier on the gun itself, and easier on the shooter. Besides, with hot loads, the brass itself is practically making minimum power factor.
Anyway, I am a fan of 10mm for it's versatility. Not because it is really big or powerful. If I just wanted big and powerful I wouldnt shoot anything but 500 s&w. I can load 10mm hot if I wanted, I can load it light for competition too. I can do more with a 10mm than I can with .40- that is why I want 10mm. An assumption that I only want the gun to shoot something hot is just that: an unfounded assumption.
I should also add: when I say light, I am still talking 185-200+ power factor...

Do you shoot your 10mm that often? Most of the people I shoot with only bring out the hot ammo on rare occasions. The rest of the time, we shoot something that won't cut into the lifespan of our guns or wrists.

Bruce says the gun can eat the hot stuff on occasion, then that is fine. I don't think there are many manufacturers that would endorse full house Norma loads all the time. In fact, most would probably say the same thing Bruce did: fine on occasion. In other words: caveat emptor.


C

quote:

Originally posted by signoir:

quote:

Originally posted by SIG_NZ:
If we wanted something less powerful we would just buy a 45 or 40SW....right?

I'm with SIG_NZ on this one. I already have a .45 and a .40. If I wanted to shoot 180g bullets at 1050fps, I'd go with hot .40s. The reason that I like the 10mm caliber is because it provides muzzle energies between a .357Mag and a .41Mag out of an auto-loader that can be easily carried on your hip. I like the idea of having that kind of firepower in a Sig. I've already ordered Bruce's conversion and, while I don't intend to abuse it, I'm not going to baby it either.

Hiya! I see how my advice on loads might be interpreted as a statement of some substantial limitation of our 10mm conversion. That's not what I am saying at all.

I also read what I think may be some confusion about what really constitutes mainstream and accepted 10mm ballistics (and associated expectations of service life for any 10mm pistol) versus the extreme fringe of the possible. Just because something is possible doesn't always make it a good idea for everything. Please let me take another swipe at it in a different way. Thanks!

I have a lot of experience with the 10mm from it's early days as a wildcat before the Bren Ten, and I've built quite a few on 1911's. I was speaking from that experience when I suggested that our customers might want to consider taking a reasonable, common-sense approach to training with their new 10mm P220's that maximizes service life while permitting realistic practice with what most of us would consider to be reasonable loads for carry.

Yes, you can run the really heavy ammo as sold by Buffalo Bore and Double Tap all the time if you wish, but that comes at a price no matter what semiauto 10mm service pistol you choose. Yes, the gun will take it, more or less as a Delta Elite might handle a lot of exclusive shooting with such loads. That may not be saying much, however.

In fact, the P220 ST might hold up better in some ways, given how I have witnessed how some Delta Elite dust covers will crack, slide to frame fits go away, barrel beds coin, radial lugs roll, the slide stop pin holes egg out and the links or slide stop pins finally fail in a surprisingly short number of rounds of such stuff.

Try that with a 10mm Tanfoglio, and you'll be wearing gun parts like punk jewelry in short order. S&W 1006? Yeah, right; just ask the FBI, and they weren't shooting the Death Major stuff anyway. Glocks also tend to beat themselves to an early death with these specialty loads (inadequate lockup values and excessive slide velocity), which if they yield velocities as advertised, are in fact a bit more powerful than the original 10mm Norma loadings which in reality didn't produce what Norma claimed. Still, the latter were the most powerful advertised factory 10mm ammo available from the major, mainstream makers.

As problems developed with the various 10mm platforms out there in the 1980's, the major ammo makers backed off of Norma's original advertised average 240 power factor standard for this caliber because it was considered excessive for most reasonable, practical applications save for hunting, and it beat guns silly.

Let's compare advertised power factors of...

Original Norma 170 PF = 238 (tested at 229)
Original Norma 200 PF = 240 (tested at 230)
Buffalo Bore 200 PF = 240
Buffalo Bore 180 PF = 243
Double Tap cast 200 PF = 260 (!)
Double Tap cast 230 PF = 257
Double Tap 200 JHP PF = 250

...versus reasonable carry ammo on the hot and cool ends of the spectrum...

Winchester Silver Tip 170 PF = 219
Federal Hydra-Shok 180 PF = 207

..and the .45 ACP, for frame of reference...

230 Ball PF = 198
Ranger 230 HP +P PF = 227

...a typical .40 S&W for fun...

40 S&W 180 JHP PF = 172

..and finally, the 165 grain load SIG_NZ mentioned in his post:

165 JHP PF = 215

Wait, this load makes 215 PF, rather less than than the heroic 250+ PF stuff that SIG_NZ was talking about. I'm glad SIG_NZ agrees with me on the use of reduced loads. His poor Glock will thank him, too.

I'll get back to my point, all well-intentioned kidding aside here. The maximum 10mm Norma-class stuff and the far hotter specialty loads from these small makers will run from our P220 conversions as well as from anything, but please do not imagine that such loads are not going to be really hard on any pistol you drive them from.

I note with interest that Double Tap offers a 180 FMJ practice load at "only" 225 PF? Hummph...the wimps. I'm disillusioned...

Now, there's another important set of points I'd like to make that might also bear on my comments and advice about practical loads and training.

There's a reason why we have taken our time developing and offering this conversion. (I started looking into it in 2004.) We envisioned building this pistol as a serious, practical weapon that needed to meet realistic, useful standards for serviceability and durability, or we weren't going to make them at all. I really didn't want to just build an expensive, temperamental toy, but rather a "real" pistol you could carry on duty, or in the field with great assurance. I feel we will accomplish that objective in spades, but y'all will have to tell me. (Soon!)

A full-sized, powerful self-defense weapon must be durable enough to take considerable training rounds, or it's worthless in most anyone's opinion. For this application, commercial combat ammo of 220 PF or below is what we are looking at. That's what's now avaialable from Federal and Winchester, and that's what I strongly suggest y'all carry in your 10mm.

I don't imagine anyone is seriously advocating carrying anything hotter than the 219 PF Silver Tip load, and some authorities might consider even that load as a bit much for urban and CCW use. In fact, I kind of feel that way, too. Maybe here in frontier Wheeler County...? I dunno. Anyway, the lightest commercial 10mm combat load I can find is still more powerful than most all mainstream .45 ACP loads and far more punchy than all .40's.

So, by this logic, training for a defensive application with realistic defensive-powered ammo poses no issues at all, of course. Shoot 'em up. Our 10mm will handle it.

I know some folks can't or don't carry a pistol for defense, but we know some of you will hunt with these pistols. (I've always wanted to hunt in NZ, by the way.) That's great! I plan to hunt with mine, if the opportunity arises, and for that I'll load some stuff that would make Edward Teller proud. After all, it doesn't take more than one round in the field, hopefully, plus enough to test and zero the pistol. Effective training for this application shouldn't realistically require thousands of rounds of nuclear loads. Indeed, such self-immolation does nothing for most shooter's trigger control. A hunter is better off dry-firing at that point, and nobody I know shoots that much in preparation for a hunt.

That leaves folks who neither carry, nor hunt, and who therefore like firing heavy loads for their own sake, in a viscerally satisfying shooting experience that's removed from all considerations of practical utility.

That's also fine, as long as we all accept that this devotion to the really hot stuff will eventually remove your pistol from you that much sooner, no matter what pistol you choose to shoot. That's all I am trying to say, and I apologize for being somewhat unclear previously.

Thanks!

-Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by Craigar45:

quote:

As you probably know, there are few guns chambered in 10mm that are smaller than a 1911 (45) or full size frame glock that can handle the 10mm in full power loads. Bar the G29, that means whatever you get will most likely be a full size pistol.

If you didn't care about shooting powerful calibers like 10mm auto, you might as well get a less powerful one like 40 or 45ACP. Understand now? Or still confused?

Lets be honest, when someone mentions 10mm auto....do you think of soft ammo? Probably not. Sure you might think of Sigforum and kittens.....but not soft ammo thats for sure!

Sig NZ, I dont think anyone here is having any trouble understanding your point... The problem that I am having with your posts is that you are making some broad sweeping assumptions about what people might want in a 10mm gun. I have a 10mm that I love shooting... I have ran some hot stuff through it, and that was ok. However, when I load my own ammo, I make it a bit on the light side. When I shoot for fun, I shoot lighter ammo through the gun. I do this because it is more controlable, easier on the gun itself, and easier on the shooter. Besides, with hot loads, the brass itself is practically making minimum power factor.
Anyway, I am a fan of 10mm for it's versatility. Not because it is really big or powerful. If I just wanted big and powerful I wouldnt shoot anything but 500 s&w. I can load 10mm hot if I wanted, I can load it light for competition too. I can do more with a 10mm than I can with .40- that is why I want 10mm. An assumption that I only want the gun to shoot something hot is just that: an unfounded assumption.
I should also add: when I say light, I am still talking 185-200+ power factor...

Do you shoot your 10mm that often? Most of the people I shoot with only bring out the hot ammo on rare occasions. The rest of the time, we shoot something that won't cut into the lifespan of our guns or wrists.

Bruce says the gun can eat the hot stuff on occasion, then that is fine. I don't think there are many manufacturers that would endorse full house Norma loads all the time. In fact, most would probably say the same thing Bruce did: fine on occasion. In other words: caveat emptor.


C

Craig, you make a great point and I thank you!

-Bruce

Yes I understand Bruce, thanks for clarifying that info. Cant wait to see how these things go. I apologize if my statements are generally speaking- just want to ensure that these pistols can handle the big stuff.

Craigar: Yes I shoot my G20 every week, usually around 50-100 rounds at a time. Always hot stuff. If I wanted a softer experience I would shoot my 9mm pistol. To each his own. Dont try to tell me you brought your 10mm pistol because you heard 10mm was soft and fluffy. Even though thats what you predominantly shoot thru it now. This is perhaps what I am getting at: People will buy this pistol because they expect it can handle the hot stuff (200PF+). Anyone who says they brought a 10mm to shoot soft ammo is a liar. Honestly who are you kidding? Sure it has a great deal of flexibility being able to load up and down as needed, but really - people buy it because of the reputation 10mm has for power.

FYI we dont get Buffalo bore here in NZ or Double Tapp....so my reloads are the cheapest hottest ammo around here in 10mm auto- obviously I will have to work at making them a bit gruntier although what I have now is fine.

BTW Bruce: how did you work out that power factor?? I am intrigued....

When I had my 10mm S&W 1076, I chronoed alot of available ammo, the Win silvertips beat everything else I tried for velocity, accuracy and cost. In my SHTF box I had 2 boxes of Talons, 2 Boxes of Golddots, 2 boxes of Corbon in each of the bullet weights available and several boxes of Norma, since I had bought a case of them when I first got the gun. I bought a case of Silvertip and was really pleased with them. The Norma had alot of muzzle flash and I just did not shoot them as well as I did the Silvertips. I had already shot a couple of boxes of each of the high dollar ammo available, Federal Hydroshocks were really hard to find.
When I got my Sig P229 I went with the 155gr Silvertips for my primary carry ammo and really like that they make good velocity out of a short gun and perform really well in wet clay.
I would love to have a double action pistol with moon clip setup in 40/10mm, but that is a pile of money to come up with. I am guessing that 200gr hard cast over H110 would be freaking awsome.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
Hiya! I see how my advice on loads might be interpreted as a statement of some substantial limitation of our 10mm conversion. That's not what I am saying at all.
-Bruce

Bruce - thanks for the clarification. I didn't want to think that the P220ST was any less robust than the Delta Elite or S&W 1006. I dismissed your previous cautionary notes as typical warranty disclaimers. My mind is very much at ease. Now to set YOUR mind at ease - I have no intention of plinking or practicing with your wonderful invention using 200rds/month of Norma-like loads. I plan to give it the same respect that it's creator would give it.

This is my first, but I'm sure not to be my last post on this forum. I joined the Sigforum just because of this post on converting a Sig220 ST to 10MM. Please tell me how to get on the list for March and if I can buy a barrel now for your safekeeping Mr. Grey or may I call you Bruce? Also what do you think of Buffers Technology device being added? I have a supply of 10MM Norma too, but I won't shoot many if any, but would like to protect my Sig as much as possible. Thanks Mr. Grey Gary

quote:

Gary1911A1

Welcome to the forum Gary1911A1

quote:

Originally posted by Gary1911A1:
This is my first, but I'm sure not to be my last post on this forum. I joined the Sigforum just because of this post on converting a Sig220 ST to 10MM. Please tell me how to get on the list for March and if I can buy a barrel now for your safekeeping Mr. Grey or may I call you Bruce? Also what do you think of Buffers Technology device being added? I have a supply of 10MM Norma too, but I won't shoot many if any, but would like to protect my Sig as much as possible. Thanks Mr. Grey Gary

Gary, howdy and welcome from us, too!

OK, to get on the list, just email Flork at scott@grayguns.com and he'll get you going. Thanks!

Larry Bullock from Buffer Technologies was a friend of mine, and his recent passing hurts all of us who knew him.

It thus pains me double to have to say that this buffer system is not recommended.

-Bruce

Thanks Bruce. I'll Email Flork to et on the list and send some $. Mr. Bullock was a great guy. He would host a party at the SSC on Friday night. I talked to him about his buffers and how I used his CZ Buffers in a Witness and Bren Ten. I see you are also putting on a School in Northern Ohio in 2008 in May I think. Maybe I'll attend if I can afford it with my Sig 220 ST being converted to 10MM.

quote:

Originally posted by Gary1911A1:
Thanks Bruce. I'll Email Flork to et on the list and send some $. Mr. Bullock was a great guy. He would host a party at the SSC on Friday night. I talked to him about his buffers and how I used his CZ Buffers in a Witness and Bren Ten. I see you are also putting on a School in Northern Ohio in 2008 in May I think. Maybe I'll attend if I can afford it with my Sig 220 ST being converted to 10MM.

Yes, Larry was a great man, and I always enjoyed seeing him at the matches. It about broke my heart to hear of his death. Indeed, I like most of their products, but the P-series SIG really doesn't lend itself to the sort of buffer system BT came up with, I'm afraid.

Come to Ohio. No worries, we'll work terms.

-Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by SIG_NZ:

Craigar: Yes I shoot my G20 every week, usually around 50-100 rounds at a time. Always hot stuff. If I wanted a softer experience I would shoot my 9mm pistol. To each his own. Dont try to tell me you brought your 10mm pistol because you heard 10mm was soft and fluffy. Even though thats what you predominantly shoot thru it now. This is perhaps what I am getting at: People will buy this pistol because they expect it can handle the hot stuff (200PF+). Anyone who says they brought a 10mm to shoot soft ammo is a liar. Honestly who are you kidding? Sure it has a great deal of flexibility being able to load up and down as needed, but really - people buy it because of the reputation 10mm has for power.

I'm about as hardcore a 10mm fan as one can get, but must admit I didn't get into it for the raw power, but for the versatility. I carry a 10mm daily (well, sometimes it's a .45), and can tailor my load to the circumstances. In the woods, I carry the nastiest Double Tap load I can get. In the city, I carry a commercial load (I like the Silvertips) that I hope will penetrate just the right amount. For practice, it's usually a handload with that barely makes IPSC/USPSA major, so that I can shoot 250 or so at a crack without twitching. THAT's the beauty of 10mm, IMHO.

Right now it's usually a Glock 29 on my hip, though I also have carried a Delta Elite and a Para Ord P16-40 in 10mm. I'm looking forward to adding the Sig to the stable.

I bought the .500S&W and the .460S&W for the power reputation. If you want a mindtripping display of power, load one of those up to max. When shooting some hot loads, the USGS complains that they have to reset the earthquake sensors.

quote:

Try that with a 10mm Tanfoglio, and you'll be wearing gun parts like punk jewelry in short order.

That is destined to be a sigforum classic line.

Bruce...I can't get on the list quite yet.....but I'll be coming to see you guys when I move to oregon this year. I've been planning it for some time now....and keep telling all my friends and family I can't wait to have you work my P220ST over. I'm on the lookout for used P220ST's for the conversion...and a few other build ideas I've got....I can't wait to meet you guys in person....and sign up for some classes.

I just had to comment on that line. I fell out of my chair on that one.....it might end up being a sig line....

How about a progress update for those of us "patiently" waiting for a package from Oregon...

when you have to ask about the progress on a from a custom gunsmith, you're not being patient enough

i'm just giving you a hard time and i'm jealous of the speed GGI actually gets work done...i guess i just grew up when work happened at a slower pace, even when you've paided money up front.

i will say that i know both bruce and scott are putting in alot of time on this project and there aren't any teaching committments until the Morro Bay class in early March.

quote:

Try that with a 10mm Tanfoglio, and you'll be wearing gun parts like punk jewelry in short order.

I resent that remark. I owned a 10mm Tanfoglio for about two years & never had a single problem. In fact I never shot the gun, just traded it for another P228.

quote:

Originally posted by Anush:

quote:

Try that with a 10mm Tanfoglio, and you'll be wearing gun parts like punk jewelry in short order.

I resent that remark. I owned a 10mm Tanfoglio for about two years & never had a single problem. In fact I never shot the gun, just traded it for another P228.

Thanks! I needed a good laugh today!

I once managed to break a customer's new 10mm Tanfoglio in one box of ammo. I'm glad yours "worked" for you.

-Bruce