quote:

Originally posted by tcop143:
I was wondering the same thing. If the problem is related to parts in the FCU versus a design flaw, I’m wondering if any differences in parts between the 9/40/357 and 45 FCUs (maybe there aren’t any, I don’t know) might be a factor.

There are some claims that it is a mismatch of putting 45/10 takedown safety lever into a 9/40/357 FCU that is behind this. Who in the heck knows?

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

Good Lord that is a kick in the teeth and CPD isn’t subsidizing at all????

Kick in the teeth to the cops that bought a Sig P320.
We buy our own weapons, holsters and equipment. (We also get a "uniform allowance" for maintenance when they get off probation, and it actually evens out over time- cost of gear and time on the job)

That being said, why would our department subsidize it?
"Oh well, sucks to be you! We didn't buy it for you, you just got unlucky."

I feel bad for the younger cops. They shelled out around $4000 for all their uniforms and gear. Sig's and holsters (mostly Safariland) aint cheap!
Now they're at a loss on the gun and holster, and have to go out and get a new pistol and holster.
There's a lot of other departments that operate the same way, and the cop is out of luck.

A lot of the younger cops in the past month or two have read Paras Thread:
https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/5941074751

(I swear that guy must have a big ole' chunk-o-stock in that company! )

I am kinda shocked a PD as large as Chicago doesn’t issue or require a specific sidearm or brand.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by tcop143:
I was wondering the same thing. If the problem is related to parts in the FCU versus a design flaw, I’m wondering if any differences in parts between the 9/40/357 and 45 FCUs (maybe there aren’t any, I don’t know) might be a factor.

There are some claims that it is a mismatch of putting 45/10 takedown safety lever into a 9/40/357 FCU that is behind this. Who in the heck knows?

While that could cause issues, why did it no affect all those units sold outside of agencies? The fact that the issue is nothing more than theoretical at this point.

quote:

Yes, there are more police with these guns than private citizens,.

Not even close.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:


What’s a gun store going to give them for a used P320? $250?

Gen5 9mms are pulling that kind of money. I’d be surprised if trade in on the 320 in this market is half that.

Think again. the LE price for the standard basic duty P320 Compact or full size is about $390...for the individual offer price



large departments can negotiate much better So you think a dealer is going to give then deals for more than that when they can only put them on the retail shelf for four hundred...or less?

Epping PD got $350 for their used P229's in 357 Sig a few years back. When they upgraded the legacy P320 the trade-in was not much more.

Locally here both Glock and the P320 can be found for under $400.00.

Vehemently defending the P320 at this point is a waste of time. It's done. The FBI report and DHS put the fork in it.

https://bearingarms.com/tomkni...0s-for-g19s-n1229259

No idea if this source is reputable or accurate.

But ChatGPT returned a confirming link.
https://www.wearethemighty.com...-the-sig-sauer-p320/

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Vehemently defending the P320 at this point is a waste of time. It's done. The FBI report and DHS put the fork in it.

The whole thing is overblown. It seems some people are now convinced that their P320 is going to jump off the table and mag-dump on its own.

quote:

It seems some people are now convinced that their P320 is going to jump off the table and mag-dump on its own.

When you look at the shear number of P320 pistols out there, the likelihood of one going off without intentionally pulling the trigger is extremely low. I have a compact and I never really worried about it going off on its own. I don't carry it because frankly, I just don't believe it is a great design.

At the end of the day, the P320 is likely a fine pistol for target shooting, competitive shooting, and even stationary home defense (like a night stand gun that isn’t being carried around). I prefer other designs but it would likely perform those functions adequately. The problem is that police duty is a different kettle of fish, and it seems to be that the problem as of now at least comes from this gun being carried and potentially jostled around in a holster. Especially an exposed LE, duty style holster. So while I don’t believe that the P320 is appropriate for one of the primary uses that it’s marketed for (i.e. law enforcement) I wouldn’t be worried that it’s just going to go off randomly. I wouldn’t feel weird about bringing it to a range and shooting it. Much to Para’s point, there’s certainly quite a bit of hyperbole being thrown around by all sides to this debate.

First on CNN: Guns used by LA deputies put officers, public at risk, report says
A few excerpts:

““There is a continued risk that either LASD employees or civilians may be seriously wounded or killed by an unintended discharge,” Huntsman wrote.“

“Despite efforts to address the problem, the risk associated with the new Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm “remains substantial,” according to the report by Los Angeles County Inspector General Max Huntsman.“

I can’t seem to find how S&W fixed their defective guns. Maybe there weren’t enough social media influencers back then help them figure it out?

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

Kick in the teeth to the cops that bought a Sig P320.
We buy our own weapons, holsters and equipment. (We also get a "uniform allowance" for maintenance when they get off probation, and it actually evens out over time- cost of gear and time on the job)

That being said, why would our department subsidize it?
"Oh well, sucks to be you! We didn't buy it for you, you just got unlucky."

I feel bad for the younger cops. They shelled out around $4000 for all their uniforms and gear. Sig's and holsters (mostly Safariland) aint cheap!
Now they're at a loss on the gun and holster, and have to go out and get a new pistol and holster.
There's a lot of other departments that operate the same way, and the cop is out of luck.

I actually think that's a positive force to influence Sig to do right with those who bought the P320. If Sig wants to get back into vying for contracts, it's going to have a better chance in the future if people in the agencies and the departments would remember that while Sig did screw the pooch on how they handled the issue, they did right in the end than having people just remember Sig screwed the pooch and left them hanging.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:The problem is that police duty is a different kettle of fish, and it seems to be that the problem as of now at least comes from this gun being carried and potentially jostled around in a holster. Especially an exposed LE, duty style holster. So while I don’t believe that the P320 is appropriate for one of the primary uses that it’s marketed for (i.e. law enforcement)

Certainly, the odds of getting a "bad one" are low, just as are the odds of a non-LEO needing to shoot someone in self defense. I was completely with you on the different environment of a police gun until the recent CA video. I don't think a school resource officer is doing much to her pistol/holster that would be considered abusive. I'm not sure what she did with her backpack is any different than what I would do on a hike with my XTEN. Sig can claim that it isn't "defective" and they may be right. It might just be too touchy for its intended purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Vehemently defending the P320 at this point is a waste of time. It's done. The FBI report and DHS put the fork in it.

The whole thing is overblown. It seems some people are now convinced that their P320 is going to jump off the table and mag-dump on its own.

Overblown or not, it's the "Feeling".
And Sig-Sauer is going to have to come out from underneath it.

People now "feel" that the P320's will go off on their own. "Eeeww! Bad gun!"
The mass of gun owners may not know that it's a few isolated incidents, ask questions like "Wait, how come there's no incidents from the Military? The Australians? The Costa Ricans?"

A lot of Police Departments are taking them out of service. People notice stuff like that. Truth, overblown, lies, under-reported, hyperbole, understatements be dammed.

Next week, when someone walks into a gun store and sees a lightly used Sig Sauer P-320 & magazines for $250 - "WOW! THAT'S A DEAL!" and grabs their wallet. (at this point, I might be doing the same, and I won't have to leave my office)

Now, we've all been in gun stores, we all know what they are like. We all know the various personalities that work for, shop, and hang out in Gun Stores.
There he is, (probably wearing the Safari Vest that screams "I'm packin' heat!", maybe even something from 5-11/Oakley/LA Police Gear) the guy just browsing...
"You couldn't PAY ME to carry one of those! They go off all the time! You'll shoot yourself without doing anything, just check the internet."
Then goes into a long diatribe about how Sig's suck, the millions of reported unintentional discharges from the P-320's, He personally seen a guy blow "the tip" off, and damn near kill himself because the femoral artery- used his riggers belt as a tourniquet! Navy SEALS hate them, One of the former Delta Operators uses them only as door stops, and they can't even do that...

Sig Sauer just lost another customer.

Just look at the last 30 pages, there's enough people on here that won't buy one or trust them enough to carry one.

A lot of advertising and sales is based on "Feeling", and not logic and reasoning.
Sig Sauer Inc / Sig Sauer GmbH & Co is going to do a lot in order to come out from underneath all this bad press. "This ends here" doesn't seem to be working that well right now.

Oh, it's even worse than that.

You're thinking like a Boomer.

For many/most of those in their teens, 20s, and even early 30s, these younger folks tend to get their information online on places like Youtube and Reddit, rather than going in person (yuck) to a retail store (gross) and having face to face conversations (ugh, gag).

And both Reddit and Youtube right now are absolutely ate up with anti-P320 hysteria. Any person who's curious about the P320 who jumps on those sites will be absolutely bombarded with hysterical claims about how dangerous they are, how you'd be an absolute idiot to ever own or especially carry one, etc.

These websites effectively function as popularity contest echo chambers, so once "the masses" decide something - on any topic - is the en vogue opinion of the moment, it thereafter gets repeated ad nauseum by hordes of people who don't actually know anything about the issue, only that the collective has decided XYZ and therefore it must be repeated and spread in order to get likes and upvotes.

Anything that contradicts the current collective opinion get downvoted into obscurity.

Even more insidiously, downvotes not only show displeasure, they actually reduce the amount of people that see those posts, videos, or comments. Upvotes, the opposite.

Hence the popularity contest/echo chamber effect... Popular opinions gets more visibility. Unpopular opinions - no matter how true or accurate - gets less or no visibility. And then repeating those popular opinions are what in turn get you more views and upvotes, and upvotes = popularity/clout, plus your amount of accumulated total upvotes are often directly tied to access to more prominent and prestigious areas of the site, or in some cases (like YT videos) get you more money.

It's all a game that's driving a massive increase in groupthink. If you're a young person who wants to determine your opinion on something, you can just hop online and see what the popular opinion is, and then automatically make that your opinion too. Without having to do any actual research, critical thinking, or decision-making. And it's actively incentivized by the websites.

So there are legions of gun owners and future gun owners out there now who have decided that P320 = bad and dangerous, without even knowing anything about it, purely because The Internet Groupthink said so. And that's forever The Truth for them, unless there's somehow a massive change in the popular online opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't think this is something that can be overcome or overshadowed or fade away with time, like the Glock kabooms in the early Internet days, before this type of collective popular opinion gaming became so entrenched and monetized/incentivized. It's well past critical mass and the Popular Internet Opinion on the P320 is set.

Welcome to the modern internet.

Email received today from the SIG mother ship. They are offering $150 - $250 incentives for buying M17 / M18.

Sooo, Gun stores ain't buying used guns, sig is still selling them, there's gonna be a huge influx of LEO guns on the market as they transition out of them. No Word from Sig about what they're gonna do with the 320 line, How is the consumer gonna deal with it?

- Sig will design a fix(new overhaul design) and pay for all the guns sent in for it(Probably not)
- Stop production and come up with something new.
.. hell I don't know.. How are they gonna overcome the bad pr. They will have to use the profit they made from the mil contract to fix the guns.

I still have a First Gen 320 (no upgrade) in the closet, so I guess I'm still "Safe"?? Was thinking about sending it in before but guess have to wait it out.

.

Butt...butt...butt
the P320 can't be dangerous!!!
It passed CA's testing for being a safe handgun and was placed on the list of Handguns Certified for Sale???


lol, to be clear ~ this a ding on CA not Sig!


.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Vehemently defending the P320 at this point is a waste of time. It's done. The FBI report and DHS put the fork in it.

Then maybe you should find out the final results and the fact the testing procedures were found faulty and had to be redone.

quote:

With FBI funding, the Ballistic Research Facility conducted a battery of scientific analyses on the M18 itself, including X-ray images, coordinate scans, and isolated tests on its firing mechanism. The lab found that the striker safety lock spring was not fully seated and only captured at the top of the striker housing. The sear experienced uneven wear, and the primary and secondary sear notch edges showed signs of wear. Additionally, the bottom of the striker pin hook had a “ledge” instead of being flat.

To do that test, they cut out a portion of the slide allowing the viewing of the safety lock. After the failures were noted, they also found out that the lack of material in the striker channel that would hold the safety lever spring in place was no longer there...allowing the part of move.

In the end , the MSP still uses the P320.