quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I wonder how the local citizenry would react if we dispensed with the handguns and just started getting out of the car on calls with the M400s...

Ha local citizenry??? You and your fellow cops would hate that after one detail/shift.

Oh believe me, I know!

Is it common for military personnel to put loaded firearms on a desk pointed at their chests?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Is it common for military personnel to put loaded firearms on a desk pointed at their chests?

I read somewhere else that when it fired it hit someone across the room not the person who put it down . All unsubstantiated.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Is it common for military personnel to put loaded firearms on a desk pointed at their chests?

I can’t speak to common military practices, but I worked for a police captain who regularly took his holstered gun off of his belt and laid it down on his desk. He used a paddle holster to facilitate easy donning and doffing of the gun/holster. I don’t think I ever went into his office and found him wearing the gun. He only put it back on if he was leaving the office for something…usually lunch

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Is it common for military personnel to put loaded firearms on a desk pointed at their chests?

Can't speak for the military, but in the cop world it happens. Taking off a holster with a gun in it, or an entire duty belt isn't totally uncommon. Sometimes you've gotta poop, or do other things that a belt/holster would interfere with. The gun SHOULD be safe if secured in the holster. I still wouldn't intentionally point it at my chest, but a holstered gun/belt lying on a desk in the (secure) office isn't an abnormal thing.

Dick Fairburn

Follow-up video on Friday

my duty holster is on a qls fork and i take it off constantly and put the whole thing on my desk. even though it's a glock, i still point it at the wall where no one is in the room behind me. i have to go into the jail every so often and it makes it easy with the qls fork so i never have to take the gun out of the holster to enter the jail.

do they not wear armor in the airforce?

I'm still working my way through a technical and mechanical issue. This gun has a manual safety. Does that not reduce or elimate the kind of discharge that is being hypotosized for these guns?

^I still lean towards two failure modes: 1. inadvertent activation of an unsafetied short travel trigger, and 2. an internal mechanical issue causing uncommanded discharges (the manual safety would not prevent these).

The more I hear of 320s going off inside holsters, the less I think they're all foreign object intrusions.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
The more I hear of 320s going off inside holsters, the less I think they're all foreign object intrusions.

Same. As I alluded to on the prior page, it’s just not happening with other guns, trigger tab or no. There just isn’t a sudden and noticeable trend in people getting stuff stuck in their triggers and guns going off to where people are noticing it and starting to ask questions. Some people can act like everyone just hates Sig and is taking an opportunity to take shots at them about it, and while there’s some of that going on, what is also going on is guns going off in holsters - the one place they never should. At this point, the Occam’s razor approach says there’s an as-yet undiagnosed problem with the gun, and a whole lot of people have a lot of time and money invested in defending it. I don’t, and as a neutral observer, I find this whole thing interesting to observe from the sidelines.

Until now. The issue everyone had an opinion about has taken a life. What we know so far is all hearsay and speculation, but it’s highly likely that there will be a very thorough investigation. I hope there is. At the end of all this, Sig may have to give a different answer that satisfies the public, because “it ends today” may bear out to be one of the biggest PR mistakes in some time. Perhaps even prophetic.

I've gone from being skeptical of the 320 discharges, thinking it was just "glock leg" of the 2020s, to thinking people were just NDing or getting stuff snagged in them at an alarming rate, to now unloading all my 320s and putting them away.

If this is truly a bad design feature, just as the drop safety was when released, I hope SIG pays dearly for it. Up to and including prison time for anyone that is found to have known that this really was a SIG issue.

Absolutely unacceptable, and I can no longer call or consider myself a sig fanboy.

I am beyond disappointed.

quote:

a whole lot of people have a lot of time and money invested in defending it. I don’t, and as a neutral observer, I find this whole thing interesting to observe from the sidelines.

This REALLY stinks on SIG’s part.
Deny any responsibility then bribe cajole the legislature to shield you from further loss.
As an observer, I don’t have a dog on this fight.
My last SIG pistol purchase was a folded slide P22something or other in the 90’s.
My local range has banned the 320 from the premises. The perception of it being a POS is out there.

I just inquired at a LGS the value of a used P320.

Zero US dollars.

The nearby huge LGS does not want the gun brought into the store for safety reasons and as the guns can’t be sold.

Supposedly Sig is working on a fix. I can wait.

Hearsay is the military will stop its use and return them or scrap them.

I have been following this thread off and on for some time as a very interested owner of two P320 pistols that I use for concealed carry.

Has it been noted that these unintended discharges have occurred with custom leather holsters and pistols without weapons lights etc, also. ?

I have been a faithful Sig [when it counts] owner for 20 years, with no issues. But I am starting to wonder if carrying my P320 is like driving one of those old 70s cars and trucks that the gas tanks only blew up if in a certain type of collision!

Lots of information, and misinformation out there. I am very confused and am trying to remain conscientious of the safety of others and myself. I may revert back to my P229s for CCW until this quandary is resolved.

Just very disappointed in about $2000 worth of, what have been reliable , accurate pistols and parts that I have severe doubts about using.

If there is a proven issue with the P320, certainly hope that Sig steps up and makes it right for all involved.

I got my first P320 Carry at a local gun show within just a few months of it being released. I really wanted it. And, after I got it, I indeed loved it. Even though I've always carried DA/SA, for about a year I decided to make the P320 my main EDC--I only reverted back to DA/SA out of a realized preference for a decocker and not because of anything particular about the P320 beyond the striker system.

I really liked my P320 and often took it to the range. It was my regular range belt gun for a while. I liked it so much I got a second one. When the more model options became available, I convinced a small number of friends to look into the platform, and one of these friends opted to use it for 3-gun.

Later on, I put both of these guns in decent holsters (Safariland) and kept them in my two "get home" bags.

Over the years, I had invested in a number of "upgrades," and eventually settled on Polymer 80 grip modules and Apex triggers.

Then, when the news of potential uncommanded discharges issues started to spread, out of an overabundance of caution, which was admittedly more of an influence on me since I am a husband and father, I quietly semi-retired both of my P320s to the safe and infrequent range use. When the safety issues started to become even more uncertain, I stopped using the guns altogether. And I was hoping to hear of a good outcome to all this, because I really like shooting my P320s.

But I was also wondering if some of the claimed issues were serious and true, mainly because of my experience across my two P320 Carry pistols. Neither ever had any detectible safety issues, and both weapons were great to shoot, but the two triggers felt very, very different between the two guns. They even sounded very different when dry-firing. I had acquired the two guns at different times (IIRC, at least 2-3 years, if not longer, between purchases), and I noticed differences in how each FCU was designed/manufactured.

I don't have much else to say except that I am praying for anyone injured or killed--whatever the ultimate cause may have been--as well as their families, and I really hope Sig figures out a path forward.

For Law enforcement, military and civilians, in the interim, until things are sorted out, ducks lined up, replacement budgets approved, etc, etc,

The simplest, least expensive, most efficient, 99 44/100 % safest avenue would be


wait for it ...


wait ...


Israeli Carry.


*1960's duck & cover school training kicks in, dives under desk, cringing in fetal position, hands over neck until 'all clear' *

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Israeli Carry.

Don't give Cohen any ideas.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick B:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Is it common for military personnel to put loaded firearms on a desk pointed at their chests?

I read somewhere else that when it fired it hit someone across the room not the person who put it down . All unsubstantiated.

I find that more believable. I’m just one person, but I try leave my firearms pointed in safe directions. At home, the loaded ones go on a shelf pointed at a concrete bock wall. In my vehicles, the loaded ones are put in a holster in the pockets in the door panel. I don’t leave them laying around pointed at people.

I’ve got nothing invested in this. I own a P226 DAK and a P239 SAS also DAK. I have five other brand striker fired handguns. My interest in the P320 issue is solely in terms of are the firearms I own safe to carry? The issue has forced my to look at what an own and really dig into the inner workings which is a good thing.

If the issue is a weapon mounted light, poorly fitting holster, light trigger with a short pull without a dingus, and foreign objects, then I’m good to carry what an have because I don’t have WML and poorly fitting holsters. There’s objective evidence pointing in this direction, including the FBI report. This failure mode is repeatable.

If the P320 just goes off due to a design flaw, then I’m also good. I’d be happy with that because I don’t own one. The problem here is nobody has been able to make that happen in any P320. Even with the guns that supposedly have this issue, nobody has been able to repeat the issue. I don’t choose to believe P320s are just going off without objective evidence, I already have a religion.

It’s possible the issue is due to poor quality control, worn parts, etc., but again nobody has been able to repeat the issue with the firearms that have supposedly had the issue.

Maybe it isn’t the WML holsters, the P320 doesn’t have a flaw or poor QC, but instead the trigger is just too light and pull too short to be suited for the purpose it’s marketed for. Cocked and not locked isn’t a widely accepted method of carry for certain firearms for a reason.

I’d like an answer not only for myself, but also for my kids and their friends who I’m teaching to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Israeli Carry.

Don't give Cohen any ideas.

CUT IT OUT

MNSIG, you mind your manners.

quote:

... but instead the trigger is just too light and pull too short to be suited for the purpose it’s marketed for. Cocked and not locked isn’t a widely accepted method of carry for certain firearms for a reason.

I have had a 9mm Compact since 2017. Even without this so-called spontaneous discharge - which I don't buy - business, its being easy to shoot is both a blessing and a curse. Especially since the "voluntary upgrade" c. 2018, the pull is just a little bit too short and light to be 100% comfortable with, especially with the AIWB carry I favor. I have relegated it to nightstand/safe, with a light, duty. My P365 has more takeup and a heavier pull and I have no problem carrying it.

For that matter, a less than perfect trigger - within reason - has little or nothing to do with shootability. The takeup and spongy letoff of a Glock, or the "hammer camming"* of a CZ, do/did not prevent my shooting them well.

*The metal-frame, non-Omega-trigger pistols, when cocked in single-action mode, have so much "creep" that you can actually see the hammer move back a little bit before it finally drops.