quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
I could be wrong, put the part that prevents the striker from striking a cartridge’s primer is stamped steel. The part that moves that part out of the way allowing the striker to strike a cartridge‘a primer may be MIM and it seems the worst that would happen if it broke would be the gun doesn’t fire.

You are correct.

The Striker Safety Lock (part of the striker assembly inside the slide) is a stamped part in the current design. Apparently it was MIM VERY early on, but that was years ago and I've never personally seen one of those. I imagine that almost every one that existed is now gone as they would have been replaced as part of the upgrade. The first I became aware that it was EVER MIM was from the Robert Burke video a month or so back, and he included some pretty clear footage of it and had a thorough explanation in his video.

The Captured Safety Lever is an MIM part in the FCU. It is actuated by the trigger bar and pushes the striker safety lock up and out of the way when the trigger is pulled. Unless it somehow broke/got jammed in the upwards position, failing to actuate would simply prevent the gun from firing.

I just received an email from the Port Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club in Palm Bay Florida:

"Effective immediately, the Sig Sauer P320, including all derivative models based on the P320 platform, is not permitted on PMRPC property. This includes both use and possession. The suspension will remain in place until the concerns surrounding this platform have been fully addressed and resolved to our satisfaction."

Bruce has started releasing his testing videos on the grayguns youtube channel:

quote:

Originally posted by bronicabill:
Regarding the striker safety lever, maybe I used the wrong terminology for the part I had in mind. Either way, long thin metal parts should be stamped or machined and not MIM to prevent having any voids in the part that can/will lead to breakage.

They are stamped sheet metal. They're not MIM, and haven't been for many, many years.

There is some possible good news for Sig. Because so many agencies have dropped the P320, the number of new incidents should be going down.

Let's imagine that in time, the Sig P320 is determined to be OK.

What worries me is that we don't have an authority who can simply and emphatically declare this situation is over. Sig's self-styled attempt was misguided and fell flatter than the lead balloon.

Who is the firearm "csar?" Who can say "looks like a number of uncommanded discharges have been investigated, the common causes include XXX and YYY, the weapon is therefore declared safe, and you can now go back to your regularly scheduled programming?"

If a universe of YouTube purveyors can create this much chatter, do all of them have to recant, should P320 safety be authoritatively determined?

Typically if a human makes a decision, say, one based on a well-intentioned but mistaken analysis by an semi-informed expert, that human does not go back to the source and review the decision. An organization like IDPA might, given their huge P320 user base, but the average Joe is likely bemoaning his choice, dumping the pistol, and going to some other technology.

If determined safe, and the USAF GSC restores totin' privileges, that would be a big step. But, if DHS and ICE are going Glock 19 with new optic, those major changes are likely irreversible due to logistics. So, the industry would be left with the impact of the DHS and ICE decisions, damning the P320 forever.

Whether it is justified or not I suspect Sig has to engineer some “fix” and make it free or pretty damn close. The witch hunt has already happened, to mix my metaphors that toothpaste ain’t getting back in line. This very thread is so full of manufactured bullshit and some of the goofiest and most moronic “testing” I have ever seen, yet we as perhaps some of the most rational of gun owners still didn’t/don’t universally push back on their moronic nature. At this very moment if I posted a grainy video that showed nothing other than a gunshot a healthy number of this forum would take it as “another piece of documented evidence” that the 320 just goes off. Crazy but true.

Nothing short of your 320 going back to them and coming back to you with some serious engineering change will solve this for Sig. They need a “fix” which in all likely will be more eyewash than fix but there it is.

Until they do there are 100k’s+ handguns out that are effectively paperweights. All the internet, FBI, etc mea culpas won’t fix the tsunami of shit that is out there.

For cars we have NHTSA, for aircraft we have the FAA and NTSB, for consumer products we have CPSC, and so on.

When NHTSA said "unintended acceleration" is pedal misapplication and nothing else, the issue was settled. Same for causes of plane crashes with the FAA and NTSB.

But firearms don't have a regulatory agency other than BATFE and they do not regulate "safe design" of firearms. If there was a "safe design" regulator every pistol would have a magazine disconnect, an external manual safety, an FPS, no trigger pull for takedown, and warnings everywhere. Just like MA and CA, but probably a lot worse. Glock might never have been able to be sold in the U.S. under such conditions.

There has been talk of regulating guns under the CPSC, but then look at all the warning labels on a simple stepladder and see how they do things. The fact that firearms are a right under the 2nd Amendment also helps keep them from being regulated like cars and other products.

Perhaps an industry consortium would help. A voluntary organization with firearms experts from all of the manufacturers setting voluntary standards and investigating things like this.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Nothing short of your 320 going back to them and coming back to you with some serious engineering change will solve this for Sig. They need a “fix” which in all likely will be more eyewash than fix but there it is.

Until they do there are 100k’s+ handguns out that are effectively paperweights. All the internet, FBI, etc mea culpas won’t fix the tsunami of shit that is out there.

A CZ Shadow 2 that lacks a FPS by design was dropped at a match, discharged and killed someone. I am not sure if the discharge was caused by firing pin inertia or if the gun had a 1.5 lb trigger with an adjustable sear set to minimum engagement and the hammer dropped on impact. But CZ Shadow 2's have not been banned from competition or ranges.

1911's are not drop safe, and there are many amateur trigger jobs that are unsafe. I've seen reports of doubling or FA on forums. I do my own 1911 trigger work, with an Ed Brown Sear jig, ceramic stones, and a 0.020" shim to cut the hammer hooks. I tune the sear spring to a 4 lb pull on factory parts, and 3.5 lb with barstock parts. Never had a problem but I am not a "qualified" gunsmith.

I have never seen a ban on 1911's without a FPS or on any gun that has been modified from factory specs by an unlicensed gunsmith.

All of the current actions against the P320 are essentially moral panic. There is no compelling reason to ban them on ranges if the above guns are not banned. With all of the P320's being used in competition, there has not been ONE incident to justify this. I am convinced a lot of this is due to Glock fanboys that resent Sig for getting the military and LE contracts.

So what is Sig supposed to do? Recall all P320's, sit on them a week or two, then send them back with a certificate saying "A-OK" ? There is no identified mechanical issue to fix at this point. Complaints about MIM or other production methods are just biases, because none of the MIM parts in the ND incident guns have been shown to have failed or have been out of spec. Sig and Gray Guns and other actual experts need to keep testing and looking for a root cause.

Absent any root cause that can be fixed, one option is to provide optional tabbed triggers, and another option is to swap out or upgrade non-MS FCU's to MS. I prefer the MS, so I might get my X-Ten upgraded if I can. AB Prototype can do the work if Sig cannot, but it voids the warranty. If Sig makes MS FCU's available for sale then that is the simplest solution and I can sell the old FCU.

I probably would not upgrade the XFive-SXG, and I'm not sure about the Legion-TXG as those are range guns and not carry guns.

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:

What worries me is that we don't have an authority who can simply and emphatically declare this situation is over. Sig's self-styled attempt was misguided and fell flatter than the lead balloon.

Who is the firearm "csar?" Who can say "looks like a number of uncommanded discharges have been investigated, the common causes include XXX and YYY, the weapon is therefore declared safe, and you can now go back to your regularly scheduled programming?"

There are two bonafide P320 experts that have addressed the public with their findings concerning P320.
Robert Burke (The Sig Armorer) and Bruce Gray (Gray Guns)
Robert released a video on 6/30 showing his test methods and findings.
Bruce is currently doing testing and I'm looking forward to his reports.

quote:

So, the industry would be left with the impact of the DHS and ICE decisions, damning the P320 forever.

I doubt that P320's future revolves around DHS and ICE decisions.

https://saami.org/wp-content/u...proved-9-25-2023.pdf

Scope
This Voluntary Industry Performance Standard provides the firearm designer and manufacturer with recommendations for test procedures to evaluate new designs of rifles, shotguns and handguns as they are defined by the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968. The test parameters simulate conditions where the firearm is subjected to abusive mishandling to demonstrate the
ability of the firearm to withstand this abuse without discharging.

SAAMI would be considered an industry consortium.

I hear what you are saying Lefty Sig and don’t disagree. I will also state that if Sig does nothing nobody is ever going to buy a 320 again. Hence my “more eyewash than fix” comment. I thought that vernacular was well known but maybe not, it means you gotta look like you are doing something even if the something isn’t really doing anything.

It’s a pragmatic approach to return Sig to the business of selling their product. If they don’t do something, this product line is DEAD regardless of the reality.

Do nothing? That is an option but then their product line of 320 products and every expense incurred to develop them is gone. Their bean counters will tell them if this is a feasible approach.

Once again, I own multiple 320’s that I haven’t shot in years. I moved on for my own reasons. If I needed to use a gun though and the 320 was closest to hand I would put it in a holster and have ZERO fear that it might just go off. They also shoot very well, are reliable, accurate and fit my hand well due to the grip module customization potential. I haven’t pulled one out in years but once again contrary to the hysteria, they don’t just go off.

As for an industry standard criteria/organization. It has been years so maybe I remember it wrong so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. When Sig said it was tested to death or whatever marketing term they used, they weren’t completely off base. Did they not use some industry standard drop testing and pass with flying colors? At the time my read on it was that they did perform what at the moment was the most stringent drop testing regimen in the industry. Unfortunately for them the regimen did not include dropping at -30 degrees from 5-6 feet or whatever it specifically was.

Now the conundrum here was that the things that made the upgraded gun drop safe were already in the M17/18. This begs the question of whether they knew it wasn’t drop safe or it was just an evolutionary design change with an added benefit. Sig hasn’t earned much grace so it is certainly easy to jump on the former conclusion and I wouldn’t argue with you.

All of which still left an RSO dead due to no firing pin block on thousands and thousands of CZ’s which aren’t banned from competitions. Or any of my series 70 1911’s. The gun world is fickle and most definitely not fact based.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Whether it is justified or not I suspect Sig has to engineer some “fix” and make it free or pretty damn close.

As I & others have pointed out, the fix has been around all along. It's called a tabbed or hinged safety trigger. And it's not just "eyewash". A tabbed trigger would have prevented the 2017 drop-safety fiasco.

Sig's own explanation is that the P320 will only fire if the trigger is depressed. Well then all these UDs should tell you that their triggers are being actuated too easily.

quote:

I have never seen a ban on 1911's without a FPS or on any gun that has been modified from factory specs by an unlicensed gunsmith.

All of the current actions against the P320 are essentially moral panic. There is no compelling reason to ban them on ranges if the above guns are not banned.

You pointed it out yourself. The big difference is that P320s are going off while holstered, not when dropped.

I think Sig's conundrum is that any fix or voluntary upgrade they offer will be construed as an admission of a design flaw and used against them in their many lawsuits. Remember, civil decisions aren't binary guilty/not guilty decisions as criminal ones are. For instance, Sig could be ruled 50% at fault. If $20 million is on the line for one case, then $10M is still a significant chunk of change.

Yes I'm sure the legal department is in control of this and they are to admit no fault under any circumstance and restate that the gun as designed is safe. While continuing to look for any actual root cause.

But again "going off in holsters" is the assertion but only duty holster gun buckets, not close fitting holsters that fully enclose the trigger guard. One of the duty holsters in question showed marks that could be duplicated with keys. I'm willing to bet that all of these cases are a finger or other object caught in the trigger guard during holstering. Backpack strap, seat belt, etc.

An OPTIONAL tabbed trigger for people who have to use a gun bucket due to choice of weaponlight should be made available.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

All of the current actions against the P320 are essentially moral panic. There is no compelling reason to ban them on ranges if the above guns are not banned.

Plus a hefty dose of legal pre-emptive cya. While I am 99.999% certain my P320 is safe, if I were to tickle the trigger and have an ND, my legal exposure and that of whatever venue I was at would be so much larger due to the current hysteria. Merely having the pistol there would be claimed as being negligent by someone bringing suit.

quote:

So what is Sig supposed to do? Recall all P320's, sit on them a week or two, then send them back with a certificate saying "A-OK" ?

I expect they will put out a very clear set of inspection, maintenance and assembly instructions that reenforce what is already in the owners manual. Unless any specific failure modes are identified, there's nothing they can fix. They can offer optional parts if we want to feel better, such as stronger springs for the trigger and firing pin block, perhaps a narrower trigger, or a trigger dingus.

See this is exactly what I’m talking about. You literally think these things are just going off in holsters. That is nonsensical bullshit. They haven’t even come close to proving, demonstrating, or showing that a 320 just goes off in a holster.

As for a tabbed trigger, which is it? Is it sear perch? MIM parts? Poor assembly? The tabbed trigger won’t fix any of that. Every video on these fifty some pages seems to imply or outright claim it’s because of an overly complicated design, bad parts, sear perch just ‘cause I like how silly that sounds. If it truly as simple as a dingus solves it then every video in this thread was basically complete nonsense.

If they sent us all out a trigger dingus and instructions that won’t calm the masses who have been poking and prodding the innards with dental picks and Glock tools. I suspect we are beyond the trigger dingus to save the day because that will make everyone admit that all the talk of how jacked up the design of the fcu is will be instantly shown to be baloney. Turns out if a dingus saves the world it really was people getting stuff caught on an oversensitive and short trigger. So in reality, an ND.

Too many egos have staked out a position that the design of the 320 is flawed to accept a tabbed trigger as the solution. My opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I hear what you are saying Lefty Sig and don’t disagree. I will also state that if Sig does nothing nobody is ever going to buy a 320 again. Hence my “more eyewash than fix” comment. I thought that vernacular was well known but maybe not, it means you gotta look like you are doing something even if the something isn’t really doing anything.

It’s a pragmatic approach to return Sig to the business of selling their product. If they don’t do something, this product line is DEAD regardless of the reality.

Do nothing? That is an option but then their product line of 320 products and every expense incurred to develop them is gone. Their bean counters will tell them if this is a feasible approach.

The instinct to "do something" to appear to be doing something is political in nature.

Despite long standing positions by the CDC that surgical masks do nothing to stop airborne respiratory viruses and lockdowns do not and cannot work, they threw all that to the side and did it anyway. And now that we have data, we can prove beyond any doubt that lockdowns and masks did nothing. This is also why we the 2nd Amendment keeps getting infringed - politicians need to "do something" about gun violence even though none of the new restrictions will have any effect. And I have to deal with this at work especially now that women have been put in positions over technical functions they do not belong in, they care more about appearances than anything else and always overreact emotionally to every problem instead of getting data first and doing what the data says to do. So please excuse me if I try to stick to data and evidence rather than emotion.

I get your point, Sig needs to appear to do something to "fix" the problem to stay in the good graces of the gun buying public. The question is what? People will know if they just do some inspection and say every gun is OK, but don't upgrade any parts. The trigger tab might help, but then that means they will have to settle every ND lawsuit claiming it wouldn't have happened if there was a tab which will basically be every single ND so far and all that might occur in the future. Might even make it "open season" with people causing ND's on purpose to get some of that settlement money.

That could get into the $100's of millions, and it could bankrupt them. It could also become a class action for every single P320 owner. And then they still have to pay for every gun to be upgraded. I do not think tabbed triggers actually do much to prevent unintentional trigger pulls in the real world and I would welcome actual testing to show their effectiveness. The tabbed trigger was Glock's way of having a "safety" without having the parts and mechanism of an actual manual safety. Even in CA it passes their rules, whereas the P320 needs to have an actual manual safety.

Glock did nothing about Glock leg and they were vindicated and no one believes Glocks can just "go off" anymore. It's always a finger or other obstruction in the trigger guard. Audi ultimately prevailed in the 5000 Unintended Acceleration debacle after several years, because there was nothing to fix. But they damn near went out of of business in the U.S.

There is a reasonably compelling argument to simply hold the line and keep stating that there is no defect, and all ND's are due to unintentional trigger pulls. Might even offer to pay $1M to anyone who can prove conclusively that there is a defect that needs to be fixed. This will all blow over eventually. Blaming the gun for the Airman that was SHOT BY ANOTHER AIRMAN is the shark jumping moment.

Meanwhile the local RangeUSA has M17's and M18's for $589, some with an additional 10% off, a Legion TXG for $899, and a Compact .45 for $579. They are selling them out and not ordering more from what I can see. Trade-ins I think are getting $100 or $150 tops. So yes, the market is going to suck for them for a while.

quote:

Blaming the gun for the Airman that was SHOT BY ANOTHER AIRMAN is the shark jumping moment.

That is when I started to change my mind about the P320’s.

I have a nice, two/tone P320, compact coming. Now if I could just figure out what I am going to do with it when I get it. There are some pretty heavy hitters on the net that have come out against it.

I am pretty sure I am just going to carefully use it at our outdoor range (I have not heard of a P320 ban there yet).

It should be noted that I have always been nervous about a “cocked and locked” 1911 style gun and never carried one that way (that should generate some comments). So, I am sure I can enjoy shooting this P320 just like I always enjoyed shooting a 1911.

Another thing I think about is that my old outfit, the Michigan State Police, really have a “dog” in this fight. Since 1966 when I joined, I have been quite comfortable with their opinion’s and policies.

Trooper Joe

Here's something Bruce Gray posted on his YouTube channel that I hadn't seen which is a detailed and accurate CG model of how the P320 works from SIG Sauer: