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| Member |
You mean BESIDES marks inside the trigger guard that match the keys he was carrying? You mean besides that? The only reason he “yelled” at you blackwater was because you absolutely refused to acknowledge your “point” had been debunked a dozen pages earlier and been pointed out to you. Trigger safeties aren’t magic. Dingus or not you get something, anything across the trigger face the gun will go off. Any gun. A dingus lessens the chance of an ND. And will probably end up on the final “fix”. At the end of the day this gun goes off when the trigger is depressed. It just has the smallest margin of safety of any current striker gun. This is the reality unless somebody finds out otherwise. As stated above though, this is now the most scrutinized and tested firearm of all time. Result? Absolutely nothing of actual substance other than Sig mishandled the whole affair from a public opinion and marketing stance. They dug themselves a massive hole and the internet is piling on regardless of facts. | |||
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Down the Rabbit Hole |
Yes it does. As far as a final fix, I believe it's too late for the LE market. Too many big players have ditched the platform. Because of liability reasons alone, agencies would be crazy to adopt it going forward.
Sig is in a real pickle. It doesn't help their credibility when they post something like this on their website. Deceptive at best. "DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years." https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/p320-information Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell | |||
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| Member |
No doubt the 320 is effectively done as a product. That isn’t the same as it just goes off. This was an event driven by a small but definite safety margin, internet hysteria and a litigious society. Those things combined to create a hole Sig has very little chance of digging out of. Facts be damned. The trigger was depressed in every one of these ND’s. | |||
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| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
My P229 has a hammer which I ride with my thumb while holstering, and no light mounted. One time my shirt intruded into the holster, and the trigger started pulling while holstering, which I immediately felt as the hammer moved. I carefully pulled the pistol out. This was a high quality IWB holster. Had this been my P320 it would have fired. (I also believe dingus equipped pistols would many times fire under these conditions because the shirt or other object could depress the dingus. Not always, but the dingus is not a guarantee.) The weapon light holsters do offer more opportunity for things to get in there, but imho the human is obligated to recognize the threat and use care to keep it clear. The entire system of weapon, light, and holster may be the issue, not any one component. A tiny light that isn't wider than the trigger guard may be the solution. | |||
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Member |
That’s hardly a smoking gun no matter how many times it gets mentioned. Those key marks could have occurred any time prior to the gun discharging. The sworn statements of the MSP members that stated that the trooper involved didn’t have a hand anywhere near the pistol at the time it fired is more than sufficient for me to conclude that those keys had nothing to do with the gun firing. I’m sorry if that’s not sufficient for you, but it’s a point we will have to agree to disagree on. Personally, I think the real reason that SIG is having such problems with the P320 right now is exactly what the attorney that has beaten them in court multiple times has said - it is simply not a safe design. I think that there have been a lot of red herrings out there that attempt to explain everything with a particular technical glitch, or any one or two singular solutions that can explain everything. The reality is that not one single striker fired pistol manufacturer is having anywhere near the number of incidents like these that SIG is having. Similarly, trying to blame this on Safariland stinks in my opinion as well. They are the largest holster manufacturer out there and they make duty holsters for all the competing designs and yet it is till only the SIGs that are having problems. Heck, the MSP incident wasn’t even a Safariland holster, it was an Aliengear holster, so again the argument falls flat to me. Changing gears, I have an honest question for some of the staunch P320 supporters out there. Do you really feel that the 320 is significantly better than anything else similar on thre market? I can absolutely understand people that have thousands of dollars tied up in multiple 320s, holsters, etc. and don’t want to spend that money on another platform. People with large financial investments in the platform hoping that they can get things sorted so as to not have to waste that money needs no explanation. What I’m really after are the people that maybe have one or two 320s amongst a host of other pistols, or maybe don’t even own a 320, someone that can’t really say that they have a crazy financial investment in the platform to the exclusion of others. To those folks, do you really believe that the P320 is THE singular best pistol of its type on the market? Do you think the 320 is better than Glock, S&W M&P, HK, FN, Walther, etc? If so, have you shot all of the other platforms? I’m legitimately seeking to understand why people feel the way they do, because if that can be understood then I think it can help drive improvements across the whole industry. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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Member |
[/FLASH_VIDEO][FLASH_VIDEO] _____________________________________ P220, P225, P226, P228, P229 Legion, P230, P230SL, P239, 38H, P365, P365 faux Legion, M17X, M17 Full, M18, P210 Standard, P210 Carry Custom Works, SP2022 | |||
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| Down the Rabbit Hole |
Those Safariland holsters look almost as bad as the free flimsy holster provided by Sig Sauer. This free paddle holster has a special feature where the opening around the trigger gets larger as pressure is applied to the paddle.    **** Edited to add additional pics ***** Before Sig starts pointing fingers at companies like Safariland, maybe they should look at their own holsters. This one is not even capable of accepting a light. I was able to stick my 4Runner seat belt into the holster and easily pull the trigger.   I was able to do the same with a pen.  The holster had lots of flex around the trigger guard when applying very little pressure. If Sig believes the Safariland holster is dangerous yet fails to recall these holsters, that is a problem. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell | |||
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| Member |
I can hardly blame Safariland. They make a holster, as best they can, to fit a gun, that’s basically a cocked and unlocked pistol, mounted with a light that has the dimensions of a Campbell soup can. Short of a holster that slams shut as soon as the gun is inserted, there’s nothing else they can do. If Safariland were smart, they would stop making holsters for the P320 and suggest, strongly, that all users carry with an empty chamber. Other holster makers would follow suit and, since there no duty holsters to fit the P320, the problem is solved. And, the Glocks, S&W MP’s etc, that aren’t going off in holsters, would be the only choice. | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
The Walther PPS’s striker is partially cocked. Pulling its trigger pulls the striker back about a 1/4” before the striker is released. There’s a pin on the back of the striker that protrudes from the back of the slide as the trigger is pulled. I guarantee your thumb riding the back of the slide as you holstered would feel that if something started pulling the trigger. | |||
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| Member |
Lt Cheg, you don’t get to say “that isn’t a smoking gun” on a 70 page thread that doesn’t have a single fact supporting your position. No, just no. Lol There are rational rules that govern factual arguments. 70 pages and no smoking gun to support your position. In fact the FBI redo pretty emphatically tried to get the gun go to off and failed. How about instead of me trying to disprove your theory you actually come up with ANYTHING that backs up your theory. Key marks in the trigger guard make 1000 times more sense than you spouting it just went off! Evidence of any kind, that’s all anybody is asking for. You guys put so much faith in the flawed FBI test. Even incorrectly stated Sig’s lack of involvement. They do a second test and you guys are all crickets now. What? Gospel the first time because it supported your argument and now, nothing? Intellectual dishonesty. That’s what this thread is full of. If it backs my argument I will parrot it, if it doesn’t, well you know. We are gun people. Any ND starts as your fault until definitively proven otherwise. We sound silly to parrot silly internet tripe. Not to mention those holsters. Ugh. I have previously stated I bought one wml Safsriland ALS holster years ago. Expensive. Really nice. Except for this gigantic maw where the trigger is. I’m just a dumb redneck and I immediately threw it in a holster box. Never used it once because it’s amazing it was sold that way. It’s amazing anybody in LE would use such a holster. WML be damned. I would rather practice support hand light use than strap that idiot bucket on. Those holsters suck. Like SERPA bad. | |||
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Member |
The large LGS here refuses to purchase used P320. They do continue to sell the new P320. One clerk said they hoped to sell all existing inventory. ------- Trying to simplify my life... | |||
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| Member |
Let's throw down on what the "clerk" says. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
Meaning what? | |||
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| Member |
Meaning who cares what a gun shop shop clerk says ? If it's labeled that it comes from management, then that's different. It was not labeled as such. | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
The MSP trooper had done three presentations of his firearm before it discharged. He had keys in his hands when his firearm discharged. The FBI was able to discharge his firearm with keys which left marks inside the trigger guard similar to the preexisting marks on the trigger guard in close to the same location of those preexisting marks. The FBI was otherwise unable to make the holstered gun fire without poking the insides with a stick. I’d like to see the sworn statements rather than the FBI’s statement of what the statements said. Did the witnesses say the trooper’s hand were not near the gun or did they say they didn’t see the trooper’s hands near his gun? I find it hard to believe the witnesses were standing around staring at the trooper’s holstered gun just before it went off. I’d also like to know how the keys got in the trooper’s hand. All of the above can be true fairly easily: On holstering his pistol, the trooper’s keys got jammed in the holster. At some point after, the trooper grabbed his keys and the gun fired. On being startled by the discharge, the trooper’s hands rose. Also on being startled, the witnesses look around trying to figure out what happened and see the trooper with his hands no where near his firearm. If this were true, it wouldn’t be the only time ever that foreign objects (including keys) got caught inside the trigger guard of a firearms and discharged the firearm. Foriegn objects is a known hazard warned about in probably every firearms manual from the last century to today and incorporated into most firearms training regimen starting with hunter’s safety class. If it were not true, we have to believe that the gun just went off even though the FBI couldn’t figure out how or why. And that the MSP fully transitioned to the P320 after this incident believing their guns could just go off for no reason. | |||
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| Member |
Using that same logic, you don’t just get to say that it is a smoking gun and automatically dismiss the statements of the MSP members. Like it or not, those MSP members provided direct testimonial evidence that contradicts your position that the key caused the discharge. Additionally you’re conveniently leaving out the fact that the reason MSP got new triggers for their guns was because a significant number of the guns supplied to the MSP were suffering dead trigger issues. I would hardly say that there was no mechanical evidence that there could be a problem with the gun in question.
You have to make decisions based upon your comfort level and I absolutely respect you choosing to use or not use whatever holster you like. With that said, there’s good reason why these Safariland holsters are so ubiquitous for law enforcement duty use throughout the US. They’re solid holsters. The other issue I keep coming back to is why are only the SIG 320s having issues with WML holsters? The design parameters and appearances are very similar for SIG, Glock, S&W, etc, so why would you blame the design of the holster when those other guns aren’t having issues with those holsters? I think it’s entirely possible that there isn’t a “smoking gun” mechanical issue with these pistols that can be identified as “defective” but at the same time the nature of the design makes them unsuitable for common LE use.
Why is that such a crazy notion? Is it really so impossible that there are more combinations of variables in play than the FBI could completely eliminate? I think even the most anti P320 person would state that an unintended discharge is very rare. Isn’t it at least possible that the FBI didn’t fire the gun enough to get all the variables to line up correctly and cause another unexpected discharge? “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Member |
I am not sure that's a reasonable expectation when it comes to unintended discharges. Same way that we (regular consumers) expect standard medical procedures, standard medication, airplanes and cars to be safe. We cannot all be infectious disease specialists, investment specialists, cryptography experts, mechanical engineers, etc. I am certain SIG P320 is done as a product. I am now thinking that SIG USA may be done as a company, certainly their CEO Cohen -- is. Question is, would they take down the whole enterprise, not just the SIG USA. The dismissive, arrogant and aggressive-you-must-not-question-us attitude radiating from the current management team, is just as big of a problem as the mechanical problems with the safety of P320. If I am to advise SIG USA, I would suggest they do these things a) Immediately establish separate investigative group consisting of engineers, forensic experts, manufacturing specialists. Sort of a Red-team reporting to the board, not to SIG USA CEO. b) the above group is to create tests and assessment protocols that are applicable to sig, but also may be used by other manufactures (so no copyrights). In other words, they must invest in firearm safety protocols now, benefitting the consumers and the industry c) they must review existing patents on sear safety and provide a written response detailing expert determination - why they think the patents are not relevant. d) They must contact regulatory authorities in every LEO division where they had sold the firearm, establish a communication and decision board collectively, monitoring the situation and advising next steps. What they should not do, is to continue posting these videos that nothing is wrong. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
And just who made this rule? You think an employee of a gun shop, a person who interacts with customers, doesn't know the store's policies? If you don't want to accept what's being claimed, don't accept it, but don't behave as if there's some life rule that says an employee of a small business is automatically so clueless as to be disseminating incorrect information every time they open their mouth. Given the way things are with businesses and the P320 these days, I'd wager the employee is correct about the policy. | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
When the report supports an alternate plausible scenario I personally have a hard time accepting the implausible one. The FBI tapped it with a mallet 50 time from 11 different points, 550 times in total, and they couldn’t get it to fire. That along with the rest of their testing seems thorough. It’s not just the FBI testing, it’s all the rest of the lawyers and their experts plus the people on the internet who can’t get one to fire without the trigger being pulled. Then, I don’t believe there’s been a single claim that one has fired without a person being around. In other words, in every case a person was carrying the gun in a holster, purse, gym bag, pants pocket, etc. and that person performed some sort of action: getting out of the car, standing up, removing backpack, walking down the stairs, etc. At least two factors are present in each of these claims. Most of these claims have a third factor: a holster. Most of the holsters seem to be law enforcement types that accommodate weapon mounted lights. There’s the one story and video with the guy whose testicle was shot off that claims it was in an appendix carried IWB holster. I’d like to read the results of whatever investigation there was in that one. For example, what kind of holster? Was it really a P320? Did he really have a holster? We just get a video reporting to be something, but there’s nothing to back it up. The airman story is a good example. We had members here deriding people on the internet for calling into question the airman’s training and yet, after that incident what was the second thing the Air Force announced? More training. Might have been the third. I think with these video and lawsuits there’s more to the story than we know and I can’t just accept the stories as true. Three factors: gun, holster, person. Which one immediately claims “I didn’t do it"? Which one sticks to that story no matter what? Side story: Fourth of July, 1979 on County Line Lake in the UP of Michigan, my brother and I are fishing out of a 14’ Sears Jon Boat with a 7.5hp Evinrude. He side casts across the boat and embeds the back treble hook of a silver and black Rapala into my neck. Guess what he said? “I got one!” At least until he realized the truth and then he said “I didn’t do it”. All the way back to our property, all the way up the hill to our cabin and our parents: “I didn’t do it”. I think he truly believed it. People do what people do with or without guns. Guns don’t seem to do what guns do without people though. Do people make claims to cover their asses? I’m sure anyone in law enforcement could answer this question accurately. Do people make sensational claims to get clicks on the internet? Do people who are mad at a company blast it any way they can? Do lawyers want to make money? Do plaintiffs want the money they deserve? | |||
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| Member |
Those that are adamantly defending the Sig P320 and claiming it’s the holster. Keys. A twig. A backpack strap, may very well be right. By proxy, you are also admitting the Sig P320 with its cocked and unlocked trigger, is not suitable as a law enforcement weapon. | |||
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