^^^this community is it's own worse enemy^^^

quote:

Originally posted by mrprovy:
this community is it's own worse enemy

You watch your fucking mouth. Don't you ever disparage this forum or its members.

Don't you ever ascribe uniquely to this forum those things which are innate in human nature.

nhracecraft, why in God's name would you bring up something like that in this thread. Why?

You and Blackwater both need to COOL IT!!!

I want everyone participating in this thread to mind their manners, and take a few extra seconds if you have the impulse to respond angrily, and I want everyone participating in this thread to stick to the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Next, by poking the sear with a stick in an uncontrolled fashion, they moved the sear enough to move the trigger bar which rotates the captive safety lever which pushes the striker safety lock up out of the path of the striker and allows the striker to strike the primer.

This is the problem. The sear should be able to move without any sympathetic movement of the trigger or the FPS lever. On a P365 pressing the sear does not make anything else move. Check any other pistol design and tell me what you find.

Sig needs to decouple these so pushing the sear down with a stick does not cause the FPS lever to move up. The rear leg on the sear was designed in to the "voluntary upgrade" to help prevent inertial trigger movement. But it seems it introduced this coupling effect which I do not think should have been accepted.

Sig's point is the timing of the system is such that a sear slipping off the striker will catch the striker at the secondary notch and/or the FPS lever will not have risen far enough to disengage the FPS.

Cut off the rear left of the sear and install a trigger dingus and be done with it.

How is it a problem?

Checking other striker fired pistols I have:

Pushing the sear down on the Beratta APX definitely rotates the striker safety block lever which pushes the plunger style striker safety block in the slide out of the striker’s path. There could be something I’m missing here that prevents this when the slide is on the frame. I’m not drilling holes to find out.

Pushing the sear down on the Walter PPS moves the trigger bar back which causes the tab on the trigger bar to push the striker block plunger in the slide up and out of the striker’s path. However, the trigger dingus prevents this because it doesn’t allow the those parts to move unless the dingus is depressed.

Pushing the sear down on the S&W M&P Shield 2.0 has no effect on the striker block.

Pushing the sear down on the Walter PPQ 45, I going to admit, I can’t find the sear. Seriously, the part I believe to be the sear is 1/4 to 1/3 the width of the striker foot and I’m looking at it thinking “really, that’s all that holds the striker?” If it is the sear, it’s an interesting design in that the sear cannot be pushed down manually unless the trigger is pulled. There’s a part of some sort under the sear that blocks the sear from being pushed down. Pulling the trigger move that part out of the way and also pushes the plunger style striker block up and out of the striker’s path.

Adding a dingus or sear block to the P320 would prevent it from firing if someone poked the sear with a stick, but has that ever been or claimed to have been the issue?

Short of poking the sear with a stick or using the wrong parts, neither of which has ever been claimed to be the issue, no one has ever been able to fire a P320 without pulling the trigger.

The issue being claimed is the P320 fires without the trigger being pulled. That’s it, plain and simple. At least it should be except there seems to be two other factors in every one of these claims: a person and a holster. Out of supposedly hundreds of incidents, have any happened without a person and/or a holster? Even the P365 that fired “uncommanded” had a person and holster.

Edited to add:
I forgot about the one supposedly wrapped in a towel stuffed in a gym bag and the one where Sig lost the lawsuit even though the guy had it the pocket of his athletic pants without a holster where:
“The jury agreed that Plaintiff’s own negligence contributed to his accident. Plaintiff agreed the trigger on his P320 pistol was pulled fully rearward with at least 7 pounds of force.” Link

Here’s a thought experiment. How many people of color, women, LGBT++ or teenagers have been shot by LEOs’ 320 pistols while said handgun was pointed at them? I mean with these guns going off all by themselves, surely some mostly innocent person has been gunned down and the story posted all over the news, right? I googled it and strangely I can’t find a single news story like that anywhere. It must be a conspiracy to cover it up paid for by Sig. Or maybe these defective guns only go off by themselves while pointed straight down in a holster with nothing near the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
How is it a problem?

I've never taken an APX apart and taken a deep dive into the design, but I've owned a PPS and as you've stated, there is no easy way to both pull the cruciform (sear) "down" and to also move the trigger bar to the rear to bypass the firing pin block.

I think a lot of this discussion on "what-ifs" relies on momentum and inertia in regards to a drop, or some other sort of impact on the pistol in any testable direction to cause what could be a discharge. I can get the striker to drop on any 99-series (P99, PPQ, PDP) Walther pistol, but I can't do so in a way to get the trigger bar to move to the rear as much as it would need to take to move the trigger to the rear to bypass the firing pin block.

I'm not saying that there is or is not something wrong with the design here, but there is enough to me to at least investigate. It has been proven that at least the early examples of these pistols could in fact fire if dropped. Sig did not recall these pistols at that point. I believe they should have. Instead, they issued a "voluntary upgrade". I don't blame people for being weary of having trust for the people who are in charge of the decision making process for this here. IF, there is something wrong with the design, I'd like to know. There's certainly at least some reason to believe so.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: parabellum,

The gun passed all the standard drop safe tests at the time. These are not Sig’s test conveniently chosen by Sig to put their gun in a favorable light. The problem is the standard tests were muzzle down or on the side. Sig’s problem here is they designed the gun to pass those tests and didn’t bother to think beyond that. It turned out those guns would fire if dropped muzzle up and both the frame and slide hit a hard surface at the same time. The gun stopped, but the trigger kept moving.

The irony here is the whole drop safe thing adds credibility to the gun doesn’t fire unless the trigger moves argument.

As far as warranting investigation goes, it seems that has happened, the P320 is now most investigated handgun in history, and a mechanical flaw has yet to be found.

Lest people think I’m defending the gun, it should have a dingus and in its current state is not suitable for police work with a weapon mounted light and associated holster. I’ve been trying to keep my opinion out of my posts because it isn’t worth the time it took to read.

Brand new (to the forum) guy here, and just wanted to say that this thread gives me hope. I am astonished by the fact that so many people who claim to be gun guys lack the basic mechanical aptitude to simply examine the design characteristics of a P320 pistol and be able to see that it absolutely cannot fire without trigger manipulation. I am further astonished by the fact that SIG Sauer hasn’t realized the irreversible damage to their reputation and sales of an excellent product which has been caused primarily by the YouTube crowd that is making money by slandering their company and product. I believe that SIG Sauer should sue every one of these people into bankruptcy for what they are doing.

The way I see things, the P320 was released three years prior to being awarded the MHS contracts. During that time, nobody made a peep about self-firing SIG’s. It was only AFTER the P320 was chosen over the fan favorite plastic pistol that rumors began circulating about a variety of supposed “problems”. First it was a drop safety thing, and even that was a condition involving a trigger pull caused by inertia and momentum. Later, you heard about MIM parts, outsourced components, and tolerance stacking. Experts and engineers have exhausted years worth of efforts in an attempt to identify a circumstance in which a P320 pistol can fire without trigger manipulation and all of those efforts have failed.

I see people saying things like “do you think all of these people are wrong?”, and other such comments to suggest that somehow claims become facts once enough people repeat them. Well, that’s not the way it works. There is reality, and there is BS. I am a retired LEO and spent most of my career as an investigator. I deal with reality, and specialize in identifying BS. I’ve witnessed firsthand the fact that the majority of LEO’s are far from gun experts. In fact, I’ve been assigned to investigate enough “it went off by itself” incidents involving my fellow LEO’s to have a thorough understanding of the fact that cops lie. They’re human beings with families, and pensions, and health insurance, and rank, and assignment to specialized divisions and a multitude of other variables that give them incentive to NEVER acknowledge that they might have done something careless or negligent that resulted in a firearm being discharged when it shouldn’t have been. This incentive increases by an order of magnitude when injury or death occurs whether it is to the officer themselves or to a bystander.

People would say that there have been incidents reported by non-LEO users and that is true. But whether it is a career altering event, or just a bruised ego, everyone who negligently fires a handgun has SOMETHING to lose, and nothing to gain by admitting fault. Add this to the sheer number of people who were upset with SIG for winning the military contracts in the first place, sprinkle a healthy dose of greed by the YouTubers who are making bank by pushing the narrative, and toss a cherry on top by adding the anti-gun crowd that is just happy as can be to see the gun community turning on a major manufacturer, and that’s where we are today.

At this moment, I’d say that the P320 is likely the most thoroughly tested and proven handgun ever fielded. If some set of FACTS becomes available that would explain how a P320 can fire without trigger manipulation, I’d be the first to admit that my opinion was wrong. But I deal in evidence, and know that videos don’t always show what we think we are seeing. I say this having recently viewed a video of a P320 supposedly firing by itself in a holster although I was immediately able to see that the retention device on the holster itself had pulled the trigger due to the pistol being over-inserted with excessive downward force (I suspect it was done on purpose to generate views and stir the pot). Short of conclusive evidence, I am going with my own understanding of the mechanical design of the pistol, and my own knowledge of the fact that I’ve seen plenty of claims of self firing guns proven to be false.

Anyway, this is my first post on this forum and I’m glad to see that I’m not the only person on earth who doesn’t work for SIG Sauer but can clearly see what’s going on here. My P320 won’t be for sale anytime soon, and it won’t be sitting unloaded in the safe full time either.

Granted, it is practically impossible to prove a negative, Sig did this to themselves when they released a firearm that could easily and repeatedly fire when dropped, in an era when the vast majority of comparable pistols would be extremely unlikely to do the same. I tend to judge by comparison.

I believe it should be the second amendment supporters who should have issue with Sig, not the other way around. Sig just gave them more "ammunition" to use against us. My question is more to the point of, would the vast majority of comparable pistols to the P320 have fired under the same circumstances as the P320s known to have fired? If the answer is "yes", then not anywhere near as much of a problem, being that this is just the nature of firearms for the time being. If the answer is "no", then I believe that Sig needs to fix the problem. This is the question I'm most interested in at this moment.

^^ THIS is why...





These are pics of a Safariland 6000 Series Duty Holster for a P320 with Weapon Light. All manner of shit can get in, fall in, and/or potentially get lodged in there anfd interact with the trigger, to include jackets, zipper pulls, shirts, keys, seat belt buckles, coins, pens, small fingers, flashlights, and the list goes on...You name it! To borrow a familiar and overused phrase, 'you could drive a truck through there'!

The previous pics were stolen from the following thread:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/5860055215

That three page thread from just 8 months ago, "SRO's holstered 320 discharged by a student" is a very good read and well worth your time. Lot's of level headed analysis, and the overall conclusion is that it's been a well known issue (for quite some time!) when it comes to these light bearing duty holsters!

This issue seems to be occurring exclusively with 'holstered' P320 Pistols. If it were a P320 issue, we'd see discharges occurring in other circumstances, except we're not. Until verifiable evidence and testing with repeatable outcomes to determine what's happening with holstered P320 Pistols come to light, IMO the issue lies NOT with the P320, but with the holster and those using it!

^^^^^^
And without a trigger dingus...BLAMMO!

^^^^If it was a child finger f***ing the SRO's trigger, what makes anyone think a trigger shoe safety would have prevented his finger from depressing the trigger?

quote:

Originally posted by mrprovy:
^^^^If it was a child finger f***ing the SRO's trigger, what makes anyone think a trigger shoe safety would have prevented his finger from depressing the trigger?

So exactly how many of the lawsuits filed involve children finger f***ing the trigger?

Haters gonna hate...

Y'know, I'm glad to see resilience after I took a few members to the woodshed, because at times I have a tendency to be too harsh, but here we are, back to the bickering.

I'm not going to break out the lash again, and I mean it when I say I'm glad to see members exhibiting resilience after I breathe a little thunder. You guys just need to have mercy on me, that's all.

Let's be cool

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Y'know, I'm glad to see resilience after I took a few members to the woodshed, because at times I have a tendency to be too harsh, but here we are, back to the bickering.

I'm not going to break out the lash again, and I mean it when I say I'm glad to see members exhibiting resilience after I breathe a little thunder. You guys just need to have mercy on me, that's all.

Let's be cool

You have been very patient with lots of us.

quote:

^^ THIS is why...

Thank you for that. If these discharges are mostly coming from pistols in those holsters, then that puts some doubt into the picture as far as a design issue with the pistol.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
With a brand new M18, the FBI replicated the issue.

"A brand-new unfired Sig Sauer M18 pistol33 was obtained from MSP to determine if the test could be repeated on another weapon. On the first attempt, the striker safety lock successfully prevented the striker from impacting the primed case.

However, on the second. attempt the primed case fired, indicating the striker safety lock failed to stop the striker’s forward movement. The primer indent measured 0.023”

The is no evidence or indication from the report the brand new M18 slide was cut.

From the report it appears only the SUBJECT weapon and spare slide was modified/milled.

PG 23
To gain a better understanding of the movement of the subject weapon and its componentsduring live-fire, test shots were taken utilizing a high-speed camera24
. As part of this testing, the
following two modifications were made to spare parts. First, the rear slide cap was trimmed so
that movement of the sear and striker could be observed. Second, a spare slide was milled to
view movement of the striker safety lock and spring.

At this point, if Sig said so, I'd take that with a grain of salt.
It will be interesting to see if the FBI produces another report, as Sig requested. My spider sense thinks that's not going to happen.

Imagine if Sig had agreed to take part in the FBI analysis?
Some confusion might have been avoided?

That too is Sig's fault.

This^^^ FBI/BRF report that keeps getting posted has been found to be flawed due to incorrect methodology.
There was a second round of testing that was more accurate using a proper test fixture.
The FBI could not detonate a test primer after 565 attempts and using 19 different striker assemblies.
https://www.twz.com/land/army-...oncerning-fbi-report

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by mrprovy:
^^^^If it was a child finger f***ing the SRO's trigger, what makes anyone think a trigger shoe safety would have prevented his finger from depressing the trigger?

So exactly how many of the lawsuits filed involve children finger f***ing the trigger?

I don't know about lawsuits, but there was an incident that was originally suspected to be an uncommanded discharge that turned out to be a little kid jamming his finger inside an SRO's holster and pulling the trigger. After he did it he told the cop that he made the gun go off. I doubt a trigger dingus would have prevented that particular incident.

I do remember this incident. It was clear what happened in this case.

In all these lawsuits, is there any evidence a key, seat belt buckle, coin, pen, jacket, zipper pull, shirt, etc. got into the holster?

If an officer decides to pin the grip safety on his 1911 and carry it without engaging the manual safety, not many of us here would be blaming the holster if something went wrong.

Sig created a design that is too close to the edge of safety for a duty weapon. We are seeing the results.

I carry a P320 in an Elementary school. Every day.

I have the regular Safariland non-weapon light holster. It doesn't have huge gaps like the one pictured above. You cant fit anything down into the trigger guard and certainly not a little kid finger either.

Safariland was extremely negligent in releasing that light bearing holster above. They are likely to blame for this entire fiasco, and Sig should own Safariland after this is all done and settled.