quote:

Originally posted by reagan2005:
Went to a Very small private gun store and the owner only had 2 semi autos in .40 When I asked why he said they take to long to sell. Everyone knows how far the 9mm has come, a few years ago I thought about switching but that was mainly so I could buy all new guns and justify it to the wife. So do yall think 40 S&W will become a round of the past? Sort of like 45 long colt. It was popular in the day but no longer a market for it, outside of cowboy guns and rifles.

There comes a point where you must stop drinking the FBI and internet kool-aid.

Had the .40 S&W never existed, then fine, the 9mm would today reign supreme - alone. But the .40 S&W DID come into being thanks to the politically motivated (Our agents can't possibly have been killed because they went to a rifle fight with handguns and a shotgun and had no clue as to what they were doing) FBI, and it IS a potent round that eclipses the 9mm in EVERY way save capacity.

Considering the following the .45 ACP has with it's anemic capacity, one would think the .40 would have the same since it IS in fact the more "powerful" round of the three assuming standard loadings, but hey, the American public is a fickle bunch.

The fact is, any gun chambered in .40 S&W can EASILY shoot 9mm and 357 SIG with nothing more exotic than a barrel swap. Yet, a 9mm CANNOT be converted "up" to handled the .40 S&W or 357 SIG due to the 9mm slide being cut only for the .394" diameter rim. So basically, if you're going to buy ANYTHING that comes in both calibers, you should always opt for the .40, then add a 9mm barrel, recoil spring, and magazine if the mood suits you.

From a SD standpoint...the .40 delivers more KE than the 9mm and in fact more than the .45 ACP. The .40 can be loaded up to lower 10mm levels and in fact, several companies offer just such loadings....Underwood, and Buffalo Bore come to mind.

I have personally crafted .40 S&W hand loads that push 600 lb-ft of KE...a number the 9mm cannot reach by 100 lb-ft or more.

IMO the 357 SIG is a solution in search of a problem. A "hot" 9mm can easily equal the average "dumbed down" load produced by our wonderful commerical loading industry, and a hot .40 can easily best it. Additionally, bottleneck pistol cases are KNOWN to have chambering problems - especially short-bodied cases that are too-easily tipped nose down when the slide hits the rim, causing immediate bullet setback. For this reason alone I would never consider carrying a pistol chambered for a stubby, bottleneck cartridge.

Grab a .40 S&W cartridge and set it next to a 9mm cartridge. Bear in mind the .40 is rated for a slighty higher "psi" and is capable of taking bullets from 135 grains up to 180+ grains. A 165 grain .40 S&W FMJ Remington load pushes almost 500 lb-ft of KE compared to a 9mm making around 330 fpe, and 9mm bullets are normally round nose as opposed to the much more efficient truncated cone design that is part and parcel of the .40 S&W.

While the FBI might make announcements, and while gun-rag writers and internet forum "experts" might seek to glom on to the distraction, the fact is, the .40 S&W beats the 9mm in every way possible EXCEPT capacity.

quote:

...the .40 S&W beats the 9mm in every way possible EXCEPT capacity.

AND returning to sight picture during follow up shots for more accurate shot placement. THAT is "from a self-defense perspective".

Let's see - what is more important - terminal ballistics or shot placement?

Which is why, after playing with it early on, I dumped .40 and stuck with 45 ACP and 9mm.

I suppose if you're only touting ballistics - then the .40 is the hands down winner.

But logistics are the true deciding factor in the end - and I suspect 9mm is a lot more popular than .40 is.

.40 is the 'answer' to a question no-one asked. And it's use is declining.

"Stop drinking the internet koolaid."

Yep.

"Delivers more kinetic energy..."

Well, we were spared the phrase 'hydrostatic shock'. "KE" is the new buzzword, looks like.

Yep.

"Internet experts."

Yep.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jager,

quote:

Originally posted by Hansgruber:
Bear in mind the .40 is rated for a slighty higher "psi" ....

Although I agree with much of what you said, that is a common, but incorrect misconception. Max SAAMI piezo pressure for the 40 S&W is 35,000; max standard pressure for the 9mm Luger/Parabellum is the same at 35,000, and +P 9mm is 38,500.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Hansgruber:
Bear in mind the .40 is rated for a slighty higher "psi" ....

Although I agree with much of what you said, that is a common, but incorrect misconception. Max SAAMI piezo pressure for the 40 S&W is 35,000; max standard pressure for the 9mm Luger/Parabellum is the same at 35,000, and +P 9mm is 38,500.

You forgot to mention that the max pressure for the .357sig is 40,000.

quote:

Originally posted by wetwilly:
You forgot to mention that the max pressure for the .357sig is 40,000.

No, I didn’t forget that. My post was to address an incorrect statement. If we’re going to start venturing further afield, though, and if it matters somehow the max pressure for the 38-40 cartridge is 14,000 cup.

To return to the topic of discussion, though, another misstatement is that no-longer-clever-if-it-ever-was claim that the 40 S&W cartridge was an answer to an unasked question. Whenever I see that statement it makes me grin, because those of us who were around when it happened know that if there was ever a cartridge that was developed in response to very specific and urgent pressures, it was the 40 Smith and Wesson. The whole development process was first driven by the recognition that the FBI wanted a more powerful cartridge than the 9mm Luger, but that its first choice, the 10mm Auto, was not the ideal solution to that request in terms of cartridge size and excessive power that produced unacceptable recoil. The next, and critical, recognition was that the FBI’s question could be answered by a cartridge that would fit in the pistols of the day that were chambered for 9mm.

Further obvious demonstration of the 40’s value to law enforcement was the fact that countless agencies adopted the round after its introduction. All those law enforcement people were clearly looking for an answer similar to what the FBI was seeking. Another little-recognized fact is that as was pointed out in early articles about the 40 S&W, various gun gurus of the age had previously theorized that a 1-centimeter (that’s 10mm for the math challenged) bullet in the 1000 feet per second range would be a highly effective self-defense combination. As I recall, even the Grand Old Man of the 45 ACP cult, Jeff Cooper, was credited with such a statement.

There’s lots of room for speculation why the 40 S&W is suddenly on the outs, from the improved loads available in 9mm to the increasing wimpiness of the average American shooter*, but this is now, and the 40 was developed and adopted by countless shooters and LE agencies who thought it was a good idea then. To say that it was a solution in search of a problem couldn’t be more incorrect and demonstrates profound ignorance of its history.

And for anyone who is interested in the actual value of the 40 S&W cartridge in defensive situations, I recommend the book Pulling the Trigger: A 25 Year Study of Deadly Force Encounters by Law Enforcement by Larry C. Brubaker. It’s a study of shootings in Minnesota by LE officers, a large percentage of whom were armed with 40 S&W pistols. The study makes it clear that claims about the cartridge’s ballistic ineffectiveness are just ridiculous.

* If I had to carry a Glock, I’d dam’ sure want one chambered for something other than 40 S&W, so I can’t fault anyone for that.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

quote:

Originally posted by enidpd804:
There seem to be two kinds of 9mm aficionados:

1) The Nine is fine
2) It's Nine or nothing

The latter gets a little obnoxious online. The previous is confident in their choice and ignores the other.

There are folks of both persuasions in the .40, .45 and even 10mm camps.

There is some relevant information in the caliber debates, but qw should probably get past that pretty soon, IMHO.

That energy should be best spent in the pursuit of competence. I carry .40, 9 and sometimes even .45. God forbid, I need that pistol for social work, I won't give a thought to the number stamped on the chamber.

While you MIGHT suggest the 9mm is "good enough" to push the "police loaded" .40 aside, surely you CANNOT be suggesting the 9mm is in ANY WAY the equal of the 10mm!

The 10mm can push well beyond 800 lb-ft of KE...about 300 lb-ft BEYOND what the BEST 9mm can do...and about 350 lb-ft beyond what MOST 9mm can do!

Though, if you've SWIGGED ENOUGH 9MM KOOLAIDE you might INDEED THINK it's the same as the 10mm!!!

quote:

Pulling the Trigger: A 25 Year Study of Deadly Force Encounters by Law Enforcement by Larry C. Brubaker

That just got added to my amazon shopping list.

Certainly not ignorant of it's history. It was developed when the 10mm proved too much cartridge to handle for some agents. There were also durability issues and a lack of available launch platforms. Ammunition would have also been a logistical ramp up to overcome.

.40 came about as a compromise from the initial demand. And it's not a bad caliber. But it never displaced 9mm, even in LE circles.

And it's use is declining across the board.

I dabbled with the G20 and G29 for awhile, using original Norma ammunition. The Hammer of Thor. But the .40 S&W doesn't buy most shooters much over 9mm or 45ACP with current ammunition choices.

Engineering is all about compromise. .40 is a good compromise, in that it maximizes the good qualities of the rounds it competes with, while minimizing the negative qualities.

And yes, for about a decade it did dominate LE circles. A few times I did polls on here about LE rounds, and more than have responded that they were using .40. Everything else is less than half. Maybe I'll repeat the survey. I bet it's still the single most popular LE cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Certainly not ignorant of it's history. It was developed when the 10mm proved too much cartridge to handle for some agents. There were also durability issues and a lack of available launch platforms. Ammunition would have also been a logistical ramp up to overcome.

.40 came about as a compromise from the initial demand. And it's not a bad caliber. But it never displaced 9mm, even in LE circles.

And it's use is declining across the board.

I dabbled with the G20 and G29 for awhile, using original Norma ammunition. The Hammer of Thor. But the .40 S&W doesn't buy most shooters much over 9mm or 45ACP with current ammunition choices.

Wouldn't matter. Results would be irrelevant.

Too small of a sample.

A few things I may have missed being mentioned are reduced magazine capacity and accelerated wear on parts and assemblies.

The good thing is, we are each free to determine what works for us.

I never bought into the .40 S&W because I saw it as an unnecessary compromise that did not offer any degree of advantage over existing calibers in use by the public. Police departments, perhaps. But the average person, for the most part, will seldom require any of it's 'advantages'.

A larger reason was, .40 S&W has limited production - and the primary driver is LE sales with the remainder being commercial sales. Should the government decide to ban or restrict the caliber from commercial sale, supplies would dry up pretty quick, and the only source would be illicit 'procurement' from a supply chain dedicated to law enforcement. And many departments just don't order that much ammunition to begin with. In fact, I've lived some places where I had more ammunition than the entire department with 30-50 officers. Yeah, I didn't care to face that possibility of having my 'favorite' handgun caliber dry up.

9mm, by contrast, is manufactured everywhere in the world. And it's used by both LE and the military. And the military purchases a lot of ammunition. Same scenario. Government bans or restricts 9mm? Pretty certain procurement will be a lot less stressful logistically.

The truth is, if you're worried about handgun ammunition in such a protracted scenario, you're losing the conflict if you haven't taken larger things into consideration.

It does appear interest in .40 S&W is waning some at all levels. No, I do not think it is going away. It just never entered my circle of consideration.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jager,

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Should the government decide to ban or restrict the caliber from commercial sale, supplies would dry up pretty quick, and the only source would be illicit 'procurement' from a supply chain dedicated to law enforcement... Government bans or restricts 9mm? Pretty certain procurement will be a lot less stressful logistically.

Your hero?

Hillary was THAT close...

And Debbie (From Florida) would have been riding her cankles all the way to the banning.

The government banning .40 ammunition, or components? For what possible reason would such stupidity occur? It won't. The mere suggestion, straw man as it is, strains credulity and is absurd.

.40 continues to be a very viable choice for personal carry, or law enforcement, and other uses. It's the upper threshold of service cartridges that still work in 9mm size frames, whereas going to the .45 means a bigger frame.

The evil sister to the .40 is the .357 Sig, which is an excellent round, offers superior barrier performance, and considerably elevated terminal effects over 9X19. It won't be going anywhere any time soon, either.

As has been discussed repeatedly, .40 offers a wide choice in ammunition and availability, is no harder to reload than 9X19, and in many cases pistols chambered in .40 are easier to find and less expensive, especially in used samples. .40 ammunition is seldom missing off the shelf.

Just obtained a 3rd gen S&W 4054.
This is my 2nd .40 S&W gun (other being a Glock 23).

PC

For the same reason the government of Mexico bans certain calibers.

It pays to know what your neighbors are doing. Because it has the propensity to make it's way into your backyard. It starts with a few tens of millions of uninvited guests that ultimately change things up for you at the voting booth.

How do you like .38 Super?

What the mexicans do is irrelevant.

There is zero chance that .40 will be banned.

.38 Super is still in use in much of Latin America, an still in use in the US.

It's also irrelevant, as the .357 Sig does what the .38 super does, is more common, and is not likely to be banned anytime, either.

What .40 users on this site do is irrelevant. Too small of a sample.

.38 Super is in use in Mexico because calibers used by police or military are forbidden. Because criminal governments do not like competition.

How many electoral votes did Hillary lose by?

It's good we have choices. At all levels.

Seems fewer are choosing .40 S&W - at all levels.

Never bought into it.

.357 Magnum makes it pale in comparison, anyway.

Congratulations. You just crowned yourself king of the straw-man argument.

Not going to try to drag hitler into that stupidity?

The adult conversation has clearly come to an end. Way to go.

If we are going to talk about off topic shit like Mexicans and 38 super, let's at least talk about cool shit...like Mexican donkey shows, or one legged strippers.

Not into your heroes.

Or your kinks.

Projection.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jager,