quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
.40 S&W.

The answer to a problem that was never asked.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
... “a 1 centimeter [1cm = 10mm ≈ 0.40"] bullet loaded to 9mm velocities” would be an ideal defensive round. Those musings did not, of course, directly result in the 40’s development, but they were a question that was definitely asked by some very knowledgeable people.

quote:

Originally posted by newtoSig765:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
... “a 1 centimeter [1cm = 10mm ≈ 0.40"] bullet loaded to 9mm velocities” would be an ideal defensive round. Those musings did not, of course, directly result in the 40’s development, but they were a question that was definitely asked by some very knowledgeable people.

I was talking on the phone to a retired big-city cop some years back and came around to guns, asked him what his preference was for concealed carry. He replied, "anything that starts with a 4."

quote:

Originally posted by Fuego220:

...Handgun calibers suck in general...

quote:

Originally posted by Fuego220:

quote:

Originally posted by newtoSig765:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
... “a 1 centimeter [1cm = 10mm ≈ 0.40"] bullet loaded to 9mm velocities” would be an ideal defensive round. Those musings did not, of course, directly result in the 40’s development, but they were a question that was definitely asked by some very knowledgeable people.

I was talking on the phone to a retired big-city cop some years back and came around to guns, asked him what his preference was for concealed carry. He replied, "anything that starts with a 4."

.....and if you ask the generation before him, they would reply "anything that starts with .357". I'm a cop myself, but unfortunately many cops are not that savvy when it comes equipment selection.....so take those cliche one-liners with a grain of salt.

Almost all of the large city departments in the country like NYPD which employees around 40,000 commissioned officers have great success with 9mm. They have more shootings in one year that almost all of the federal agencies using .40S&W combined. If there was truly a problem, it would likely have been addressed a long time ago.

In the grand scheme of things, the FBI developed a testing standard in the lab and the .40S&W did better in those tests than the 9mm did 26yrs ago. The major failing of the old 9mm loads was that they had inconsistent penetration characteristics, and their fragile bullet construction caused them to break apart when impacting materials like auto windshields. Now days with more advanced bullet technology, the 9mm does about the same as the .40S&W in those same FBI tests. A big reason why the FBI went back to 9mm in 2012 since the 9mm has many other desirable attributes to it.

Handgun calibers suck in general. Like all service sized calibers, the .40S&W has had some great success, and some spectacular "WTF" failures. A good example would be the Officer Peter Soulis OIS where he fired multiple rounds of high velocity 165gr Win Ranger Talons from his Glock G22 into the center mass of Tim Palmer. Palmer was shot 22 times.....17 of those hits were in the bowling pin of his center of mass. After 11 of those bowling pin hits to his COM, Palmer was still able to run back to his vehicle put it in gear to drive away. 6 more hits to his torso ended the fight.
http://lawofficer.com/archive/...ter-soulis-incident/

If you want to talk about .45acp, the Officer Keith Borders and Officer Timothy Gramins incidents also show that even the big and might .45acp has had some spectacular failures to stop a determined attacker quickly.

Looks like the wheel gun shooting old timers who have long been retired were right........shot placement is everything.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
I live in NYC. The reason they stayed with 9mm was a combination of cost and politics. Effectiveness had nothing to do with it. The NYPD stayed with .38 revolvers long past when most other agences went to 9mm pistols, because of the negative press given perception of increased capacity/lethality of 9mm in the press. Changing to .40 would have caused the same issue. And lets not forget the cost issue in a 35-40,000 person department.

Also, unlike a lot of departments, most shooting incidents will involve multiple officers (rarely do you see an NYPD officer alone.) When the SHTF, they put A LOT of rounds in the air (which has had the effect of hitting bystanders on occasion.) So they may not need the enhanced effectiveness of the .40 as much as a force where a lone officer would be dealing with a situation.

This is a long way of saying that the NYPD is not typical of most LE agencies, even those in other big cities.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
.40 S&W.

The answer to a problem that was never asked.

Although that bon mot is still as clever as it has been for decades, I must most strongly disagree: I would say that the cartridge’s existence was “asked” for more than any of the other big four defensive autoloading pistol cartridges (9mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP) ever were.

The 40 S&W was a direct outgrowth of the FBI’s specific request for a less powerful 10mm Auto load than what was available when they switched from the 9mm after the Miami debacle in 1986. Shortly after the 40’s introduction, writers for gun periodicals also described how more than one defensive firearms expert had opined that (paraphrasing to a degree) “a 1 centimeter [1cm = 10mm ≈ 0.40"] bullet loaded to 9mm velocities” would be an ideal defensive round. Those musings did not, of course, directly result in the 40’s development, but they were a question that was definitely asked by some very knowledgeable people.

Edited for clarity.

quote:

Originally posted by GregY:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
.40 S&W.

The answer to a problem that was never asked.

Although that bon mot is still as clever as it has been for decades, I must most strongly disagree: I would say that the cartridge’s existence was “asked” for more than any of the other big four defensive autoloading pistol cartridges (9mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP) ever were.

The 40 S&W was a direct outgrowth of the FBI’s specific request for a less powerful 10mm Auto load than what was available when they switched from the 9mm after the Miami debacle in 1986. Shortly after the 40’s introduction, writers for gun periodicals also described how more than one defensive firearms expert had opined that (paraphrasing to a degree) “a 1 centimeter [1cm = 10mm ≈ 0.40"] bullet loaded to 9mm velocities” would be an ideal defensive round. Those musings did not, of course, directly result in the 40’s development, but they were a question that was definitely asked by some very knowledgeable people.

Edited for clarity.

Hasn't the idea of a .40/1cm round in a certain weight and velocity range as an ideal tool for law enforcement been kicking around for a *long* time?

That idea kept coming back. Was a major driver behind several imperfect implementations, .41mag and 10mm both. Wasn't until .40sw came along that someone finally properly scratched that itch.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
.40 S&W.

The answer to a problem that was never asked.

Although that bon mot is still as clever as it has been for decades,

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
I must most strongly disagree: I would say that the cartridge’s existence was “asked” for more than any of the other big four defensive autoloading pistol cartridges (9mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP) ever were.

The 40 S&W was a direct outgrowth of the FBI’s specific request for a less powerful 10mm Auto load than what was available when they switched from the 9mm after the Miami debacle in 1986.

quote:

Originally posted by .38supersig:
I was kinda thinking that the .41 AE was a better round than the .40 S&W. But then again, you can't find any around here. Asking about the .41 AE mostly gets the reply of... Who?