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Originally posted by Aglifter:
I believe in the solas - and I understand language changes over time/that I have my own ignorance of language.

Ergo, I read additional materials, which help me adjust for the changes in language from the era of translation to present/address my own ignorance.

The concepts are simple. You don't have to even learn a new language in our era. Reading additional materials is good as long as they aren't focusing on proving a doctrine and instead are looking for truth.

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Originally posted by Aglifter:
For the first time, in a long time, I am in a great church. We are focused on discipleship, and a bunch of nerds, mostly, but it is focused on being a genuine Christian family.

That's great. May I ask discipleship of what? When Jesus said to make disciples of all nations, what did that mean to Him and those that he was talking to?

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Originally posted by Aglifter:
Going alone is, IMO, very dangerous, and very hard.

Martin Luther did it, for a period, if I remember things correctly.

Humans do not do isolation well, and we will bend our principles to avoid it.

I'm not sure that's relevant anymore. You can literally have church and fellowship without leaving your house these days. We're doing it right here.

Bringing up Luther is another good discussion. It seems his problem was with the pope and not doctrine. Protestants are basically catholics with most of the same syncretisms.

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Wow. You bring up a very good point. With Martin Luther, it wasn't "you're a christian and we're going to persecute you;" it was "you can't be the only one correct among us who are a group of theologians." ...

... It's easy to believe in something contrary to general opinion when there's no pressure; but when faced with unrelenting pressure and the threat of consequences, how do you decide that what you believe is true despite the consequences or, perhaps, you might actually be sincerely wrong?

That's a good discussion. Personally, I've found that applying a variation of Pascal's wager to all these things can be helpful. If there's a possibility of sin on one side and no possibility of sin on the other, I go with the less dangerous. I'm talking about Pascal's position that if God does not exist then all I would lose by believing in Him would be giving up things that are bad for me anyway and I'd have to be good to people. If He does exist and I don't believe I lose absolutely everything.

Take for example the Sabbath, there is no possible sin in ceasing work for one day. The only thing you'd ever lose is a small amount of income. However, switching to demanding the "Lord's day" be kept there is a possibility of sin by not keeping the Sabbath holy. Being included in the 10 commandments lends a lot of credibility to Sabbath keeping and the fact that it existed from the beginning. I've weighed these things out and found that there is no possibility of sin in my position on the subject. There is also no adding or taking away from scripture in my position.

The same process can be used concerning eating foods that are considered unclean. There is no possibility of sin in abstaining from biblically unclean foods. There is also no adding or taking away from scripture in this position.

Paul alluded to this technique when he said "against such there is no law". (Galatians 5:23b)

All great discussions here, as far as discussions go. The one very important fact is that Believers in Jesus, those born again by His Holy Spirit, are members of His Body. Each has a functioning Hos Body. We are the Bride of Christ. While it’s true that many have various “levels” of revelation, understanding, and dedication to following Him, we are still a part of the whole, the Ecclesia. We are commanded to love one another, not judge one another. Growth in understanding is God’s business along with the individual seeking Him, Truth.

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Scripture is all we need. What it comes down to is rebellion. Those who don’t want to follow the Scriptures add to or take away from them. Or we try to play ala carte and pick and choose what we want to obey.

God said His word will never pass away. That should be warning enough to do our best to follow His word.

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God was well aware that would happen.

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If there's a possibility of sin on one side and no possibility of sin on the other, I go with the less dangerous.

As reloader-1 said, God knew this would happen. Just so long as someone is not unwaveringly entrenched in whatever their twisted (or not) interpretation is, and is willing/eager to learn, in an effort to be a better emulation of Christ, it's ok to have varying opinions on how Christ means for us to act. We're all participating in this conversation because we want ourselves to be better reflections of Christ. If we could have this conversation for the duration of multiple lifetimes, we may very-well come near to a total understanding and agreement upon the "proper" interpretations of everything. We don't have that long, but the smaller increments of spiritual growth one may experience in their lifetime, as a result of discussions like these, make a difference.

When it comes to the more debated and controversial issues, I tend to apply the logic mentioned by mark123: Which side of the debate has zero possibility of sin?

This conversation, and other aspects of our lives, is us doing our best, as PowerSurge warned we should.

Thank you to everyone, for the continued discussion.

The mention of God knew this would happen reminds me of Alvin Plantinga. Check him out on YouTube.

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Originally posted by Bentonville:
All great discussions here, as far as discussions go. The one very important fact is that Believers in Jesus, those born again by His Holy Spirit, are members of His Body. Each has a functioning Hos Body. We are the Bride of Christ. While it’s true that many have various “levels” of revelation, understanding, and dedication to following Him, we are still a part of the whole, the Ecclesia. We are commanded to love one another, not judge one another. Growth in understanding is God’s business along with the individual seeking Him, Truth.

I agree with most of what you said except on judging. 1 Cor 5:12 states otherwise. We actually are to judge one another just not self righteously.

“ But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Jeremiah 10:5 - Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field,

Closely related to the OP: What is "conviction"?

I have heard it said by the preacher more than a few times, and I am now hearing it even more in an extracurricular Wednesday night "life group".

"The Lord convicted me."
"I was in conviction."
"The Lord was convicting me."
...etc

It's seemingly almost always a condition that precedes one's salvation. I do get the impression we can be "convicted" after being saved as well though.

I get the impression it's a synonym for feeling guilt or shame for having sinned.

What say the group here?

Thank you, Pavilion. It seems I was on the right track.

Is it safe (and accurate) to paraphrase in the following manner?...

An awareness of one's sinfulness; brought-on by an act of the Holy Spirit, the hearing or reading of Gospel truth and/or the law of God, personal reflection, etc.

An awareness of fault in the eyes of God. The antecedent to repentance, and sometimes even salvation.

I understand and respect your position, Pavilion. Thank you for providing the source material for me to learn from. For now, at this point in my spiritual growth and learning, it is helpful to me to "boil down" text like you provided, so I can better file the point away in my (sometimes seemingly barely capable) noodle.

Though they do have the potential to be misleading, I can't say I'd be too harsh on a paraphrasing that helps things to be better understood by non-believers or those in the earliest stages of their spiritual growth.

Here's how I understand conviction.

From time to time, I tell people that I was so convicted by the pastor's sermon or whatever I heard that it took all my will power not to do anything about it and even several days before the feeling of conviction passes.

I actually do say that and I say it as a joke to bring up the point that if you're being convicted, you're being convicted to take action to alleviate the discord between your current state and the better state of affairs you are being convicted of.

I have been attending a Wednesday night men's "Life Group" at my church for the past three weeks. It has been a very fulfilling experience, and I'd encourage anyone to take advantage of stuff like this, if your church offers it. If it doesn't, I'd encourage you to start it. Even if you don't regularly attend the Sunday service, I'd recommend attendance of something like this.

The title "Life Group" doesn't really mean anything. What it boils down to is 60-90 minutes of ten dudes discussing topics presented by a loosely-adhered-to curriculum. There is a book that you use throughout the week, and you discuss the week's topics in the Wednesday meeting.

It is discussion much like we've had in this thread. Including the consistent use of the scripture.

It's possible you go to an event like this, and it's uninspired and unenthusiastic. If that's the case, I'd say motivate the group with your own contributions; they'll all start talk more, and quickly.

It's been hugely useful for me, and I think a lot of y'all would get a lot out of it, if you aren't attending something similar already.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

^^^^^^^^^I think it’s natural and edifying to seek inspiration. It’s why we do many things in our private lives. I gravitate toward the inspiring. It’s part of why I love SIGforum. I doubt I’m the only one who’s been inspired by the goodness that goes on around here. I think that’s part of the value of attending church meetings. Inspiration can keep us closer to a higher moral plane. Reading/studying the bible has the same effect. I think interdenominational bickering destroys inspiration. That only advantages evil. It seems to me the great struggle of mankind is righteousness vs. evil. If we look at it that way, through that principle, then the faithful of all denominations and creeds are brothers in arms. I think there is more to the spiritual than we understand in this life and a loving, merciful God is driving it.

Ultimately your Pastors/Elders (the office of the one who leads the church) is responsible for you (Hebrews 13:17) and should be ensuring there are ways to train up the people so they continually grow in sanctification.

Life group could be one way, but whatever it is there should be ongoing opportunities for growing. You should also be utilizing them and not trusting on an hour or two Sunday to suffice for your entire spiritual growth.

Most would be surprised at how life changes the more we get to know the God we profess. The more we know about He and His Word, the better we understand who we are and what is required of us. Most people are just too lazy to seek out the scripture on their own and rely on being spoon fed for an hour a week (if that).

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Ultimately your Pastors/Elders (the office of the one who leads the church) is responsible for you (Hebrews 13:17) and should be ensuring there are ways to train up the people so they continually grow in sanctification.

That's exactly what this is. There's also a Monday morning men's prayer breakfast, which I have only been to once so far. Both of the events are attended by more-or-less the same people; the breakfast is attended by the Pastor as well. The men that attend these events are mostly men who I would consider my "elders". The events are consistently mentioned from the pulpit on Sundays, and participation is encouraged.

I agree with mrvmax, in that Sunday isn't enough. I understand many folks opt to take their growth more personally, and feel no need to leave home. For me, the conversation motivates the home work, and I am excited to hear what these men have to say. I share my thoughts as well, and I feel the others are truly appreciative of my attendance.

My wife and I just watched S1E3 of The Chosen a few nights ago. The subject matter was Matthew 4:24, concerning his healing of many sick and afflicted people in Syria.

The episode ended with Jesus trudging back into the disciples' camp at dusk. He was visibly exhausted; the kind of exhaustion that comes from hard work, not mere long hours. The Scripture surrounding Matthew 4:24 doesn't imply this, but the idea appeals to me.

Jesus doesn't just snap His fingers. His miracles took a spiritual, emotional, and ultimately even a physical toll on Him.

His crucifixion is obviously the peak example. The spiritual/mental/emotional toll of shouldering the collective guilt and shame of all of humanity's sin is unfathomable. He was wiling to do it for us.

I think it lends a significant weight to the Christian concept. For a non-believer, a messiah who was sent by God, to "symbolically" absolve the world of it's sin by perishing on a cross, to then be whisked away to heaven in a pre-arranged scenario is perhaps dismissible as not being a particularly significant sacrifice on the part of Jesus.

Considering that He suffered a spiritual hardship that we can't even imagine, on top of the physical torture of crucifixion, is another thing altogether.

Again, I don't know what (if any) scripture supports this thinking.

There is nothing in the Bible that states His miracles took a physical toll on Him. That is new age bunk. He was grieved in His spirit at the hardness of men’s hearts though.

Always beware of commentary when not backed up with Scripture. There are many deceivers who call themselves Christians. Jesus even warned us about them.

In the case of the crucifixion, is it ever implied that He suffered more than any man would have suffered? If His miracles didn't tax Him, did His absolving humanity of its sins on the cross tax Him?

All of your answers are in the Bible.

Indeed. I read it daily, in small pieces. I haven't re-read it enough yet to know all the answers to things I am curious about. Brain goes all the time; bible reading doesn't go enough to keep up. I am gettin' after it.