Well said, darth.

I have always been under the impression that, due to geographic circumstances and technological limitations, wells were not common. They created hydration resources by squishing grapes instead, as it was more practical/economical in the circumstances.

Dues to storage limitations, much of this no-doubt fermented to a degree, and could affect the impairment that what we know as wine can impose.

Much of it likely did not have a high alcohol content (so nearer to juice than what we know as an alcoholic beverage), and they were not existing in the way we'd consider someone who drank nothing but wine nowadays. They weren't a bunch of drunkards, though much of what they drank was wine.

I could be off on all this, but that's the impression I have.

quote:

wells were not common

Correct, they had huge cisterns that collected the water when it did rain

So, did they have an adequate supply of drinkable water, or was the wine used as a primary source of hydration?

Wow! This discussion is thoroughly high-centered.

Straight from the 1828 Webster’s dictionary:

WINE, n. [Gr.]

1. The fermented juice of grapes; as the wine of the Madeira grape; the wine of Burgundy or Oporto.

2. The juice of certain fruits, prepared with sugar, spirits, &c.; as currant wine; gooseberry wine.

quote:

Wow! This discussion is thoroughly high-centered.

We're trying to move past it!

Can anyone comment on whether the "juice of the crushed grapes which likely had mild alcohol content" (wine) was consumed out of necessity as a primary source of hydration due to lack a drinkable water?

I cannot speak for biblical wine, but Egyptians made a beer (fermented bread water) to preserve the nutrients from wheat for long storage.

It would follow that wine was fermented to preserve grape or fruit juice in the same manner. The alcohol was needed for the preservation, the affects were merely a by-product.

That makes sense. It was indeed wine and it was that way out of necessity. It was not an elective leisure drink; it was a primary source of hydration.

That said, I think it's fair to say that Jesus likely wouldn't endorse/encourage the consumption of contemporary alcoholic beverages, the way that we know it today.

So... everybody's right?

I'll "double post" this...

Alcohol consumption is a different thing for different people. Some people may struggle with moderating it, and are potentially faced with an all-or-nothing decision. If they choose the nothing route, they'll no-doubt lean heavily on their faith. It's a big deal for them, and they'll mention it in circumstances like this discussion thread, as it is something very closely related to their faith.

Those who don't have trouble moderating it may feel that these folks are implying that alcohol abstinence is something they consider an essential aspect of good Christian behavior. I don't think that's the case. Of course there are exceptions but, I think, more often than not, that these folks don't think everyone should avoid alcohol.

PowerSurge and bronicabill have both made multiple contributions to the discussion, which are much appreciated. I don't think either of them think 100% abstinence from alcohol is required of Christians. If they do, then I hope they make it known, and we can discuss it. It'd be interesting to hear their viewpoints.

I, for one, am envious (shame on me!) of the naturally moderate drinkers. For now, I fall into the all-or-nothing camp. I opt for nothing, and am grateful for the Lord's help in that endeavor.

I hope that we can settle the matter. The wine is wine, and no one in this conversation that chooses to abstain from strong drink has a judgmental attitude toward those that imbibe, nor do they think abstinence from alcohol is a Christian necessity.

quote:

That makes sense. It was indeed wine and it was that way out of necessity. It was not an elective leisure drink; it was a primary source of hydration.

That said, I think it's fair to say that Jesus likely wouldn't endorse/encourage the consumption of contemporary alcoholic beverages, the way that we know it today.

And I am going to immediately backpedal.

Upon discussing this matter with a friend, I came to the conclusion that Jesus absolutely endorsed the consumption, in moderation, of wine known to affect what we know as drunkenness.

At that wedding, maybe we can say that the water was known to be undrinkable. If they only consumed the biblical wine (or juice) out of hydration necessity, then why wouldn't He have turned that bad water into good water? He opted to make it wine, because the occasion was festive, and He clearly felt that a degree of enjoyment derived from what that drink had to offer was a good thing, under those circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
And I am going to immediately backpedal. ...

That's the attitude we should all have. Sometimes I'm wrong. I'd like to think that I'd admit it.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
And I am going to immediately backpedal. ...

That's the attitude we should all have. Sometimes I'm wrong. I'd like to think that I'd admit it.

I've always had that position. I think the issue is that people tend to identify themselves with their beliefs. And who wants to identify themselves as being wrong?

For me, I see whatever I believe in as separate from me. I can certainly defend my beliefs but I also spend time periodically critically pressure testing my beliefs. And if parts of my beliefs turn out to be wrong, I would gladly replace them for a "better" or "more accurate" truth.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
Some people decide they are better-off avoiding alcohol completely, and rely on Jesus' help to abstain from it.

When I get started I cannot control my drinking. I'll drink until whatever I have on hand is gone. My GP and cardiologists agree that it is way too much and I need to quit.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
Alcohol consumption is a different thing for different people. Some people may struggle with moderating it, and are potentially faced with an all-or-nothing decision. If they choose the nothing route, they'll no-doubt lean heavily on their faith. It's a big deal for them, and they'll mention it in circumstances like this discussion thread, as it is something very closely related to their faith.

Those who don't have trouble moderating it may feel that these folks are implying that alcohol abstinence is something they consider an essential aspect of good Christian behavior. I don't think that's the case. Of course there are exceptions but, I think, more often than not, that these folks don't think everyone should avoid alcohol.

PowerSurge and bronicabill have both made multiple contributions to the discussion, which are much appreciated. I don't think either of them think 100% abstinence from alcohol is required of Christians. If they do, then I hope they make it known, and we can discuss it. It'd be interesting to hear their viewpoints.

I, for one, am envious (shame on me!) of the naturally moderate drinkers. For now, I fall into the all-or-nothing camp. I opt for nothing, and am grateful for the Lord's help in that endeavor.

You have it nailed down perfectly for me KSGM! I started to snip some of what you said above but decided it needed to be left in its entirety less I remove something important!

First and foremost, I do NOT believe that Christians require 100% abstinence from alcohol. Drinking in moderation is not an issue for me in accordance to my beliefs. It IS an issue for me in recent years as I started drinking to excess and found that I couldn't stop! I attended AA meetings for quite a few months after the realization came to me that I was about to be in serious trouble. I haven't remained 100% alcohol free since then but have been keeping it down to a level that does not interfere with daily life anymore, and would prefer to just not drink at all... at least the hard stuff (100 proof vodka is my preference, straight from the bottle). Having a nice cold beer from time to time would be just fine!

Hope this clears things up a bit...

quote:

I think the issue is that people tend to identify themselves with their beliefs. And who wants to identify themselves as being wrong?

The funny thing is I was not initially invested in the wine/juice debate (so it didn't have much of a sting, when I had to correct myself). I decided to get invested when it proved to have a derailing effect on the thread. I was eager to bring the matter to a sort of conclusion, and jumped to some of my own as a result. I hope the issue will not make a resurgence. If it does, I hope we can discuss it politely and logically.

I know there are many members here, bronicabill, who can offer a helping hand, if you find yourself confronted by those demons. I have seen support on Sigforum before, and it appears there's a good-many folks who can offer faith-based support to boot.

I came to Sig Forum because I bought a W. German 228. Since then, I have been amazed by the thoughtful, intelligent and respectful members that inhabit the place. This discussion would have gone down the toilet rapidly in most anonymous discussion groups. Impressive job of not going there.

And for the record I am a saved Christian. The short version is I ran out of the desire to fight against it. As far as those of you that have had bad experiences with church people: churches are full of imperfect, broken people. While we are called to love one another some people are best loved from a distance.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
So, did they have an adequate supply of drinkable water, or was the wine used as a primary source of hydration?

Cannot speak to what the dominate source of hydration was, but in 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul tells Timothy to stop drinking only water but to drink some wine for his stomach's sake due to his frequent illnesses. I highly doubt that non-alcoholic "grape juice" would have any medicinal properties, but I'm quite sure that wine would!

I think a key point of the wine discussion, and partially to the “saved” discussion, is WHO IS JESUS?

Jesus is love. Think of the person who most exemplifies “love” to you, and Jesus is infinitely more loving.

Jesus is just. Think of the most rational and even-handed person you know, and Jesus is infinitely more just.

Jesus is good. Think of the best, most amazing person you know, and Jesus is infinitely more in every quality.

If we, all reading the same book, can’t agree that wine is alcoholic and Jesus made alcoholic wine, then who is to say we are reading the rest of the book correctly?

Jesus asks us to love one another, and he died for our sins. Do the absolute best you can, and try not to determine who is the most “holy” or “pure” in their belief in God.

We are all imperfect, and I firmly believe that God has given us all the opportunity to gain heaven. It that means for some, they should abstain alcohol, then they should. If that means for others, they should travel to different places to speak about Jesus, they should. If others believe that pressing a button on Saturday is a sin, then for them it is.

Our paths are all different. There is one evil, but many different ways to seek and find Jesus.

In my experience, which is limited to the small state of SC (and a small region of the state, at that), it seems that the term "saved" is primarily used by Baptist and non-denominational churches. Many churches in our area place a huge emphasis on the number of people who become "saved" each and every Sunday - some churches even make social media posts with a head count each week. There is also much emphasis placed on doing so publicly, in front of the church body, and then being baptized by immersion, regardless of age.

What is being "saved"? My belief is that it simply means that one believes in John 3:16, has accepted Christ as his/her personal savior, has accepted God's grace and forgiveness, and tries to live by Micah 6:8.

I'm a Christian, am 59 years old, and have gone to church my whole life. I was raised in a small-town Baptist church, and I do remember being "saved" at my home church during Vacation Bible School one summer. I grew up listening to "hellfire and brimstone" sermons - always left the church thinking I didn't stand a chance - "get saved today or go straight to hell"

My wife and I have been married for almost 38 yrs, and have been members of our local Presbyterian church for over 25 years now - prior to that, we visited different churches in the different areas we lived - Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian. She grew up Presbyterian, so settling on our current church was easy, and I loved, and still love, it. Our church believes in infant baptism. Then, the young members present their Faith Statement to the Elders of the church and are "confirmed" in 8th grade, becoming official members. Again, I can only speak in regard to our pastor and our church, but we place more emphasis on the processes of justification and sanctification, after the salvation, or being saved.

To me, it's all so simple, yet so extremely complicated at the same time - and it's a never-ending process and journey.

People in the middle east 2000 years ago drank wine. And it had alcohol in it. Some of it was preserve drinks that couldn't be refrigerated, but make no mistake that some people drank it to get drunk.

Quit trying to be so cute about biblical wine. Jesus was fine with a cup of wine.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
People in the middle east 2000 years ago drank wine. And it had alcohol in it. Some of it was preserve drinks that couldn't be refrigerated, but make no mistake that some people drank it to get drunk.

Quit trying to be so cute about biblical wine. Jesus was fine with a cup of wine.

Yes, and led a pretty conventional Jewish lifestyle from what I understand, notwithstanding his eventual ultimate mission and purpose.

I can’t tell you the specific date but I was 10 or 11 grew up very active in the Presbyterian Church.
Faith and Christ were always a part of life and when I became old enough to truly understand the personal aspect of being saved we were at a family friends house they are such wonderful people and very active with youth Sunday school and youth group. I remember it clearly they had a beautiful garden and I went for a walk with Cybil in the garden and she was talking about the personal acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
What a place and with how Cybil spoke about it it was as if she were an angel talking to me the understanding was so real even for being just a young kid.
We prayed in the garden that day and I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. 30 years later or so me and the big guy have had our ups and downs.
And while there have been times where the lyrics from My Epic’s song Black Light have been so true:

quote:

It leaves you cursing while you're trying to pray.
This time I think they're one in the same.

That faith has never gone away! I can never thank Cybil enough!

As times have passed my experiences and the denomination I once knew and grew up in no longer aligns with many beliefs I hold, I became a converted Catholic almost 5 years ago.