I'm a bit fascinated with some of the responses here. First off, from a strict interpretation of Tesla's financials, Tesla has never turned a profit. Any quarter(s) Tesla has shown a profit have been through total manipulation of their financial results via use of tax credits from other entities (perfectly legal, but certainly not sustainable or an indication of future profitability). And I find it beyond absurd for anyone to argue "The Boring Company" topic reflected in the linked article could be anything other than bait and switch. They contracted to provide a future technology, and delivered a conventional, one way, paved tunnel. Somebody deserves a refund on that one.

Musk's companies have sucked up a huge amount of government/taxpayer subsidies to date, yet many of them are teetering on the verge of insolvency. There are some (including me) who would contend Tesla is already financially insolvent, and is running on little more than good feelings and hopes at this point. If Tesla misses its sales numbers when Q2 results are announced (and it likely will), I'll finally get off the sidelines and invest in Tesla stock....by starting to aggressively short it.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:
The argument is that a switch to electric cars (which some believe is the future) requires infrastructure and investment that won’t happen without an external jumpstart.

My leftist brother thinks that the only reason internal combustion engines have such a huge power to cost advantage is because the social costs (Pareto equilibrium for Econ majors) aren’t included in the cost of the fuel. I’m not convinced that he has considered the social costs of mining for the electric car batteries or their disposal.

Me, even if electric cars are the future I’d be happier without the government picking winners along the way.

Perhaps, but we see in Tesla's case the argument is a failure......or at least swirling the drain. Solyndra was surely a failure if not fraud (corruption) altogether.

If Tesla had not started making electric cars, do you think so many car makers would have jumped on the bandwagon? The folks arguing for government control of the economy would argue that getting electric cars out and in use was the goal and their investment accomplished that sooner than it would have happened otherwise.

Again, I’d rather the government did a lot less picking of winners and losers and trying to control consumer behavior, but nobody asked me.

Electric cars existed before Tesla. The problem is that no one could make one that could match or better the combustion engine. Nor could they make one desirable enough to entice the consumer to buy enough of them to be profitable. I'd argue the tax money would have been better spent improving tech and logistics of electric cars and let natural market forces dictate which method of conveyance survives. I mean if we are using tax dollars for the common good.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
All these pictures are cool but if he didn't con the government into giving him BILLIONS in subsidies they would have never been taken.

Well Exxon and Mobil, IE big oil, has con’d the government out of billions for decades. Far more money than a federal tax incentive on an Electric Vehicle. Current Federal oil subsidies are around 15 billion per year with another 5 billion at the state level for approximately 20 billion per year. These oil companies make billions in profit every year.

If you are gonna hurl shit burgers, at least be consistent. How one can bitch about one company while turning a blind eye to so many others, is baffling.

The famous Bernard Madoff Ponzi Scheme has been surpassed by Elon Musk

quote:

Originally posted by icom706:
Musk - a good marketeer and charlatan. Knows how to 'work the financial system', and may or may not end up in club fed. I think he is a blowhard. Tesla is a loss - sure interesting car, but the other automakers are about to eat his lunch. Audi ran E cars in LeMans with great success - so it's just a matter of time before the release their Tesla killer (minus US protection barriers; Free Trade? ha ha ha).

I posit that without Musk, the big auto makers would have had no incentive to build electric vehicles. They may ultimately make him a footnote of history, but I believe his was the spark that lit the fire.

Now, are electric vehicles the thing of the future? I'm not so sure. I still fail to see where the savings come in.

quote:

Originally posted by fpuhan:

quote:

Originally posted by icom706:
Musk - a good marketeer and charlatan. Knows how to 'work the financial system', and may or may not end up in club fed. I think he is a blowhard. Tesla is a loss - sure interesting car, but the other automakers are about to eat his lunch. Audi ran E cars in LeMans with great success - so it's just a matter of time before the release their Tesla killer (minus US protection barriers; Free Trade? ha ha ha).

I posit that without Musk, the big auto makers would have had no incentive to build electric vehicles. They may ultimately make him a footnote of history, but I believe his was the spark that lit the fire.

Now, are electric vehicles the thing of the future? I'm not so sure. I still fail to see where the savings come in.

The government is trying to regulate the internal combustion engine out of existence. It has ran up against a wall as far as efficiency goes. Almost all of the automakers are having trouble with their tiny turbocharged engines because of these govt regulations. Electric cars are going to be mainstream in the next 10 to 12 years. With or without Tesla.

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
All these pictures are cool but if he didn't con the government into giving him BILLIONS in subsidies they would have never been taken.

Well Exxon and Mobil, IE big oil, has con’d the government out of billions for decades. Far more money than a federal tax incentive on an Electric Vehicle. Current Federal oil subsidies are around 15 billion per year with another 5 billion at the state level for approximately 20 billion per year. These oil companies make billions in profit every year.

If you are gonna hurl shit burgers, at least be consistent. How one can bitch about one company while turning a blind eye to so many others, is baffling.

Truth bombs away!!!!

”But but but but but an article told me to be ENRAGED!!”

LMFAO!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
All these pictures are cool but if he didn't con the government into giving him BILLIONS in subsidies they would have never been taken.

Well Exxon and Mobil, IE big oil, has con’d the government out of billions for decades. Far more money than a federal tax incentive on an Electric Vehicle. Current Federal oil subsidies are around 15 billion per year with another 5 billion at the state level for approximately 20 billion per year. These oil companies make billions in profit every year.

If you are gonna hurl shit burgers, at least be consistent. How one can bitch about one company while turning a blind eye to so many others, is baffling.

Well be careful one doesn't step in pile of flinged shite burgers
Truth about Oil Industry Subsidies

The majority of these "subsidies" people think are oil industry only breaks, they are in fact common tax breaks that apply to EVERY company in every industry in the USA.

Even though they are not Oil industry specific, but it's a common tactic of the press, however politicians, leftist environmentalists, and anti oil people continue to make this claim without first checking facts.

BTW from the Forbes article

Now let’s analyze what the oil & gas sector pays in taxes. In 2012 the top two corporations paying federal taxes in the US were ExxonMobil and Chevron CVX +0% paying a combined total of $45.2 billion. On average, the industry pays a 45% tax rate when all state, federal, and foreign taxes are totaled up. By comparison the Healthcare Industry pays a total rate of 35% and the Pharmaceuticals pay an estimated rate of 21%. Based upon these numbers it’s hard to believe which business sector is criticized the most for “subsidies”.


Speaking of taxes, how much money in federal income tax and state income tax does a company that has no income pay, anyone care to guess, anyone? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

And HRK drops a MOAB truth bomb!!!!

”But but but but but I'm a fanboy and can't handle anything negative about MY IDOL!!”

LMFAO!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by fpuhan:

quote:

Originally posted by icom706:
Musk - a good marketeer and charlatan. Knows how to 'work the financial system', and may or may not end up in club fed. I think he is a blowhard. Tesla is a loss - sure interesting car, but the other automakers are about to eat his lunch. Audi ran E cars in LeMans with great success - so it's just a matter of time before the release their Tesla killer (minus US protection barriers; Free Trade? ha ha ha).

I posit that without Musk, the big auto makers would have had no incentive to build electric vehicles. They may ultimately make him a footnote of history, but I believe his was the spark that lit the fire.

Now, are electric vehicles the thing of the future? I'm not so sure. I still fail to see where the savings come in.

Well, the “environmental savings” come from switching to electricity. You see, electric cars don’t emit pollution and this allows their owners to feel superior, at least if they don’t consider the pollution created in the generation of the electricity, the mining of the materials to create the batteries, and the disposal of the batteries. But they are all “clean & green”. Yeah, I’m not buying it either.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
And HRK drops a MOAB truth bomb!!!!

”But but but but but I'm a fanboy and can't handle anything negative about MY IDOL!!”

LMFAO!!!!

You AM radio guys get too wrapped up when we disagree with INFOWARs and Rush Limbaugh. Some of us just enjoy arguing with your party line.

But at least you don't have the repressed sexual fantasies of your other boys here.

P.T Barnum

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
And HRK drops a MOAB truth bomb!!!!

”But but but but but I'm a fanboy and can't handle anything negative about MY IDOL!!”

LMFAO!!!!

You AM radio guys get too wrapped up when we disagree with INFOWARs and Rush Limbaugh. Some of us just enjoy arguing with your party line.

But at least you don't have the repressed sexual fantasies of your other boys here.

Forbes, company financials, etc. - yeah, real AM radio stuff/party line there. Debating about something is one thing, going Saul Alinsky is something else entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
And HRK drops a MOAB truth bomb!!!!

”But but but but but I'm a fanboy and can't handle anything negative about MY IDOL!!”

LMFAO!!!!

You AM radio guys get too wrapped up when we disagree with INFOWARs and Rush Limbaugh. Some of us just enjoy arguing with your party line.

But at least you don't have the repressed sexual fantasies of your other boys here.

Forbes, company financials, etc. - yeah, real AM radio stuff/party line there. Debating about something is one thing, going Saul Alinsky is something else entirely.

I think you're wasting your voice. Some here don't seem to have an interest in reality. Tesla's and Solar City's financials are what they are when reviewed strictly. And "The Boring Company" story in the linked article can't be described as anything but bait and switch.

I really respect what SpaceX has been able to accomplish. They are truly re-writing the rules for space flight. I hope SpaceX survives regardless what happens with Tesla, Solar City, or any of Elon's other endeavors.

I don't think he is a con-artist. I do think his ego gets in the way of business success. He should get out of the way and let experts in business run the business and experts in auto manufacturing design the assembly line and experts in cave rescue...do that as well.

Space-X looks like the best of a gov/private relationship if we as a society think continued space exploration is worth while. It is far too costly and risky to do it as a 100% private venture and without government subsidies it either wouldn't happen or would have to be 100% government funded.

I'm not so sure electric cars are going to be the future. There is no denying the Tesla models are very good cars at a reasonable price given their performance...but the business ain't working and the demand for all-electric cars is way over-estimated.

Funny that debating that he's not a complete conman makes you a fanboy doing sexual favors for him... which leads to the humor about AM radio warriors out of touch with reality, which likely has bit of truth to it...

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

Well Exxon and Mobil, IE big oil, has con’d the government out of billions for decades. Far more money than a federal tax incentive on an Electric Vehicle.

That is some straight leftist wording there. I suppose you’re in the camp with AOC that believes Amazon was stealing $5 large from New York. See, paying a lower rate isn’t the same as a direct payment from the government. Wow, just wow.

Thug walks up to you on the street and takes your wallet. He removes $50, but leaves $50. From your point of view, the victim just stole $50 from the thug. That’s the way the left views taxes, and that’s what you are saying about the oil companies.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

Well Exxon and Mobil, IE big oil, has con’d the government out of billions for decades. Far more money than a federal tax incentive on an Electric Vehicle.

That is some straight leftist wording there. I suppose you’re in the camp with AOC that believes Amazon was stealing $5 large from New York. See, paying a lower rate isn’t the same as a direct payment from the government. Wow, just wow.

Thug walks up to you on the street and takes your wallet. He removes $50, but leaves $50. From your point of view, the victim just stole $50 from the thug. That’s the way the left views taxes, and that’s what you are saying about the oil companies.

Yeah you got it. Yeah I’m on here and I’m a big fan of AOC. LMAO. You haven’t seen my posts in that bitches thread. She might as well be the anti-Christ to me. Lumping me in with her or the left because you don’t like how I say something?
What’s next some third grade insults?

Most energy is subsidized in the United States. Oil, gas, name it. It isn’t leftist, or right wing, or anything else. And I don’t need some Forbes link to tell me anything. It’s been going on for a long time. It isn’t new. But we live in a sound byte time and that’s what you grabbed a sound byte, then did an auto-lump. Way to use cognitive ability there.

What I do read all the time on here is bash bash bash on Tesla, Electric Vehicles, so much that it is laughable. Been going on for many years now. But the funny thing is that Ford axed a bunch of their cars so they can invest in electric vehicles. Every damn automobile manufacturer in existence is doing the same, including Ford, and GM. VW has already said 2026 will be their last gen of gas engines.
https://www.reuters.com/articl...n-2026-idUSKBN1O32O6
None of them would be doing this if it wasn’t for Musk and his Tesla company. I see those cars all the time here, I mean a lot of them, even seen a S and a 3 at the gun range, and I highly doubt the drivers are liberals here in Tejas. They are everywhere now. Last time I checked they were built in the United States. They weren’t built in Japan, Germany, or Mexico, but here in the US, providing jobs to Americans. An American company using American workers, who would’ve thunk it? And they use American power. 15-16% of our oil still comes from the Middle East, and I loathe that place. I want the USA to be energy independent and electric vehicles could help an awful lot towards making that happen. I don’t own a Tesla and won’t (cost too much for me and I don’t know if they will last when all the auto mfr’s pounce) but I do daily drive an electric vehicle and power it by panels on my roof that arc on this forum pointed me towards when he put in his solar array. There is a guy at work that DD’s a Prius with a bumper sticker on the back that reads “not a liberal”. I guess I need one too, and need to put it in my tag line. Or should I go buy a F150 tomorrow and a can of cope? What you drive does not dictate your politically. A vehicle is an inanimate object.

Ol’ Elon. Yeah his entire existence is just there to cheat us all. Holler at me when you find the threads about Ford and GM and people going ballistic on them for their EV’s getting federal tax incentives.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Current net worth $18.1B.

That number will change when he gets margin calls on his equity loans which will put a smile on my face.

I was only following him on Twitter for amusement purposes when he committed securities fraud on Twitter with his Am considering taking Tesla private at $420. Funding secured. Tweet which caused me to lose a lot of money since - with no prior positions in $TSLA - I went long long assuming that he would never commit securities fraud, but Musk is much too special to care about laws.

But Elon Musk didn't stop with the SEC's wrist slap settlement, he just violated it since he's so special - Musk breached the agreement he made last year with the Commission — and with American investors.

Despite his technical skills, Elon Musk is an established liar and criminal, and redundantly, he has no integrity.

P.S. Other than the first sentence, I was not addressing you or any forum member personally. I just economically combined two posts.

quote:

Originally posted by FishOn:
P.T Barnum

Word on the street is that the fishing is better on Mars than in Westport. Put down your deposit fast!