quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

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Originally posted by jhe888:
Just think - users ingest many times this amount, and they all don't OD. I know they are more tolerant, but . . .

Opiate addicts have significantly higher physical tolerance to opiates.

Same reason why an alcoholic can still be awake and talking with a .40 BAC or higher, while a non-alcoholic would be unconscious or dead.

Yep, and this is also why many addicts OD. The tolerance builds quickly, and it also drops quickly, so people either relapsing or scoring after a long time without will often shoot the same amount they left off with, to lethal effect. River Phoenix and Jim Belushi died that way, just off the top of my head. It's super common.

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Originally posted by DoctorSolo:
You wanna argue over whether the name is correct?

Maybe not as such, but it would be beneficial to identify and propagate the knowledge of exactly whatever this is that's having this effect on LEO's. Whatever it is. If it isn't fentanyl, then that's something we should know. Generally speaking, more knowledge is always better than less knowledge.

Pretty sure Jim Belushi is alive.

This thread has become as entertaining as the COVID thread.

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Originally posted by smschulz:
Pretty sure Jim Belushi is alive.

Yep, John. Tired.

Show me one single proven case of law enforcement experiencing an opioid overdose…

I bought into this scare before it actually became a scare. Some training class I was doing on drugs years ago. I had used fentanyl dozens of times as a paramedic and knew it was potent. Heard the carfentanyl Russian counter-terrorist story…saw it as legit.

A couple of years later agencies absolutely lost their minds about it.

I watched every “overdose” very closely for the first year or two. Every single one was an anxiety attack or didn’t make sense. Fentanyl does not readily absorb through skin. To date, it’s all bullshit.

Yes, if you inject or snort enough of it you’ll stop breathing sometimes. I’ve given plenty of narcan. I know. My agency stopped considering narcan administration for lifesaving awards because there are too many to process. That’s a true statement.

But not a single use on an officer, needed or not.

I was once told by a DEA chemist that is worked with on a case that the smallest amount of fentanyl that can be synthesized, literally a single grain, is too potent for medicinal use. Medical use fentanyl is diluted (for lack of a better term) using a rotary evaporator as part of its production process. While I never had experience with drug manufacturing as a chemical engineer before going into law enforcement, I am familiar with rotovaps and the DEA chemist’s explanation makes sense to me. I’m willing to bet that the fentanyl produced illicitly for the street does not have nearly the same safeguards in place with respect to quality control and dosing. Accordingly, this might result in the rather strange behavior apparently exhibited by these drugs. Just a hypothesis on my part, but I think a reasonable one.

The other interesting observation is that the Naloxone (Narcan) administered to these officers was produced by the pharmaceutical industry, complete with the predictable results one would expect from their use. Naloxone is known to be an opioid antagonist, it reliably counteracts the effects that opioids have on humans. Again, it doesn’t reduce the drug from the system, or otherwise speed up the metabolic processes that remove any drug from our system, it simply counters the effects that the opioids have. In each of these cases referenced where members of law enforcement received doses of Naloxone after apparently suffering from some sort of episode, they responded in a manner consistent with that of a person that had overdosed on an opioid and received a dose of an opioid antagonist. While this is admittedly only anecdotal evidence, it does seem to support a conclusion that the officers were under the effects of an opioid.

I’m not calling anyone out, or attempting to doubt the opinion of anyone more qualified in this area than myself. I’m merely offering some possible explanations consistent with my own experiences. I have administered narcan myself and the response these officers had seemed consistent with what I’ve observed. My guess is that there has to be some more complicated mechanism at work.

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Whatever the drug is, and, if it is indeed, what people are calling Fentanyl, how is what's happening not being called chemical warfare? Does doing fentanyl give a high or other symptoms that could be called pleasurable? I think crack gives people a high, at least.

Well, there's a man who has never been given any opiates.

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Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Whatever the drug is, and, if it is indeed, what people are calling Fentanyl, how is what's happening not being called chemical warfare? Does doing fentanyl give a high or other symptoms that could be called pleasurable? I think crack gives people a high, at least.

Well, there's a man who has never been given any opiates.

Not everyone experiences “euphoria” from opiates. Likely not even a majority. My wife is one of those people.

IME, euphoria is a classic addiction red flag for any substance… Attribution to the pleasure reward system of the human brain (and alternative neurotransmitter metabolic pathways).

Two things make sense to me so far… One is the lack of quality control on the illicit mfg, and two, the molecular changes in supply that occur in China to the precursor drugs, in order to escape and avoid criminal law.

I’ve heard that there is carfentanil on the streets as well as who knows … this is a real war with real casualties everywhere

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Originally posted by DoctorSolo:

How do you know they aren't, given the dumpster-fire that journalism has become?

College students are dying from taking tiny amounts of counterfeit Adderall bought from online importers. And it's popping up in a slew of other counterfeit meds. This shit is nasty enough to be life threatening to people who inhale an infinitesimal amount.

These "OD cop" stories are sensational yellow journalism. They titillate and alarm people, and put eyes on the media outlet. They aren't carefully reported. Stories about the latest-super-dangerous-drug-that-you-don't-even-know-your-kids-are-using are standard fodder in any media outlet. That appears like clockwork. They can't resist it.

On the cop stories, the reporter reports what the cops say: "Officer Joe passed out from touching drugs." We all get scared and are fascinated. There is no follow up story to confirm that Officer Joe was actually poisoned by an illicit drug. And if Officer Joe wasn't poisoned, but had a panic attack or something else, that isn't an anywhere near as interesting story as the first report. So, all we hear is first, scary report. Nothing else.

What we are seeing in these cases is almost certainly conversion disorder.

Let's think about it... the people possessing these drugs are literally walking around with them on their person's, in their vehicles, etc. and are then smoking, snorting, or shooting them and, for the most part, not overdosing, but then a cop is handling small amounts in an open air environment and are dropping in seconds through passive inhalation?

It doesn't add up.

It doesn't mean it's not potent or dangerous. It doesn't even mean that the reactions of the cops in these videos aren't genuine.

Dr. Mike Simpson has put a lot of information out there about this, as have others. The chiefs and sheriffs that are releasing these videos are doing everybody, especially their officers, a disservice.

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Originally posted by DaBigBR:
What we are seeing in these cases is almost certainly conversion disorder.

Let's think about it... the people possessing these drugs are literally walking around with them on their person's, in their vehicles, etc. and are then smoking, snorting, or shooting them and, for the most part, not overdosing, but then a cop is handling small amounts in an open air environment and are dropping in seconds through passive inhalation?

It doesn't add up.

It doesn't mean it's not potent or dangerous. It doesn't even mean that the reactions of the cops in these videos aren't genuine.

Dr. Mike Simpson has put a lot of information out there about this, as have others. The chiefs and sheriffs that are releasing these videos are doing everybody, especially their officers, a disservice.

I guess that's what I was trying to say in one of my previous posts. Like in my sailor days, I could outdrink and outlast anyone because I knew how to titrate alcohol in my body, one hard drink a minute will get me the most drunk without passing out; while people not used to alcohol would get drunk and throw up / pass out at lesser quantities than I could take.

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Originally posted by jhe888:

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Whatever the drug is, and, if it is indeed, what people are calling Fentanyl, how is what's happening not being called chemical warfare? Does doing fentanyl give a high or other symptoms that could be called pleasurable? I think crack gives people a high, at least.

Well, there's a man who has never been given any opiates.

I've not looked up what category Fentanyl is. I do have to admit, one time I was getting an MRI and I was injected with something to help with the contrast. The nurse said I'll be feeling cold through my body, I then started to wait but I was surprised how quickly the sensation coursed through my body. I remarked something about how quickly that went when I was expecting a gradual process and the nurse said, "That's why people inject drugs."

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Whatever the drug is, and, if it is indeed, what people are calling Fentanyl, how is what's happening not being called chemical warfare? Does doing fentanyl give a high or other symptoms that could be called pleasurable? I think crack gives people a high, at least.

Well, there's a man who has never been given any opiates.

I've not looked up what category Fentanyl is. I do have to admit, one time I was getting an MRI and I was injected with something to help with the contrast. The nurse said I'll be feeling cold through my body, I then started to wait but I was surprised how quickly the sensation coursed through my body. I remarked something about how quickly that went when I was expecting a gradual process and the nurse said, "That's why people inject drugs."

Did you ever get a pain pill from the dentist?

Also, you were most likely injected with gadolinium as a dye contrast for the MRI. It’s also most likely still with you. Doesn’t really metabolize out; ever.

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:

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Originally posted by jhe888:

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Whatever the drug is, and, if it is indeed, what people are calling Fentanyl, how is what's happening not being called chemical warfare? Does doing fentanyl give a high or other symptoms that could be called pleasurable? I think crack gives people a high, at least.

Well, there's a man who has never been given any opiates.

I've not looked up what category Fentanyl is. I do have to admit, one time I was getting an MRI and I was injected with something to help with the contrast. The nurse said I'll be feeling cold through my body, I then started to wait but I was surprised how quickly the sensation coursed through my body. I remarked something about how quickly that went when I was expecting a gradual process and the nurse said, "That's why people inject drugs."

Fentanyl is a synthetic opiate. It does what opium/morphine/heroin do to your brain, but is more potent. Opium and its derivatives are natural opiates. There are other synthetic opiates like oxycodone.

I wonder if any was inhaled. I say that as that not being an issue done intentionally but with the officer being in a closed environment-car and crushed pills. Addicts are always looking to chase and try new things,even at their own and others peril. There have been a lot of weird things going on that we as ems/hospital personnel are seeing.

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Originally posted by DaBigBR:
What we are seeing in these cases is almost certainly conversion disorder.

I think this is most likely (in the cases of the cops)...or some other dissociative state. There also has been research done on using naloxone (and other agonist/antangonists) in the acute treatment of these states. Anyone who's experienced a panic attack can verify that they are indeed paralyzing, with symptoms not unlike what we witness in these videos.

Also, naloxone's effects are not limited to just opioid antagonism. It is also known to reverse the effects of other medications. So, perhaps there is a "cocktail" mixture of drugs at play here.

I'll be that guy. She had a panic attack.

May not be Fentanyl, may not be Heroin, may be some opiate, maybe God knows what crap. She had no chest rise and fall, i.e. respiratory arrest or apnea that was profound. Narcan blocked what was doing it, and she needed more. I don't think she staged apnea, call me a cynic. Glad she's OK, PD, Fire and EMS have enough danger to deal with now this shit.

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maybe God knows what crap

The lab who looked at her blood would know. Maybe one of these days somebody will show us one of those reports as evidence of what was or was not present so that others can act accordingly in similar situations.

If one was highly cynical, they may even believe that there's a reason those results are never shared, and that's because it shows something other than what they're attempting to lead people to believe.

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Originally posted by spunk639:
May not be Fentanyl, may not be Heroin, may be some opiate, maybe God knows what crap. She had no chest rise and fall, i.e. respiratory arrest or apnea that was profound. Narcan blocked what was doing it, and she needed more. I don't think she staged apnea, call me a cynic. Glad she's OK, PD, Fire and EMS have enough danger to deal with now this shit.

100% agree!