quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
If it was as dangerous as this, the users and dealers would be dropping dead all over the place.

I don't know about the dealers, but the users ARE dropping dead all over the place.

quote:

Originally posted by Infidel:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
If it was as dangerous as this, the users and dealers would be dropping dead all over the place.

I don't know about the dealers, but the users ARE dropping dead all over the place.

Generally speaking, dealers are smart enough not to use their own product. They see first hand what it does to people.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
Just think - users ingest many times this amount, and they all don't OD. I know they are more tolerant, but . . .

Opiate addicts have significantly higher physical tolerance to opiates.

Same reason why an alcoholic can still be awake and talking with a .40 BAC or higher, while a non-alcoholic would be unconscious or dead.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
Every single time one of these cases occurs, something is missing.

A lab report.

Why are there no lab reports showing the presence of narcotics in their system? Every professional that I've ever spoken to or read about as far as this topic is concerned says that it's highly unlikely to be an OD. If incidental exposure is causing an OD, a blood test would verify it.

I'm not quite understanding your post. I would imagine since this is on the job that a lab report would be generated.

I also don't understand the issue of "OD." Surely, her reaction was due to interaction with the drug, right? And, maybe her resistance is such that that was her reaction while someone who's been using the drug would have not reacted at all in the way she did. Otherwise, we'd have reports of people dying just from opening a bag of fentynil that they were about to use.

quote:

Originally posted by mike28w:
I wish that folks would quit calling this "fentanyl".

As an anesthetist since 1984, I have handled and administered remifentanil, fentanyl and sufentanil( much more potent and concentrated than fentanyl) on a daily basis. I know how these drugs work and what effects they have on people. That my job!

Countless times, I have accidently spilled or splashed small amounts of these drugs on my skin. I have even accidentally been squirted in the face with these drugs. I have NEVER had any kind of adverse reaction to these drugs, nor have I experienced any kind of noticeable effects at all. This leads me to the conclusion that while there is definitely a drug on the street that is an opioid, it is most definitely NOT fentanyl.

I would assume you agree that the illegal drugs that they call methamphetamine, heroin, and, (I don't know another drug) opium are the chemical equivalents of the legal drugs, right? So why do you think they're calling this Fentanyl when you obviously have the expertise to know what the illegal drug is is not Fentanyl?

Whatever the drug is, and, if it is indeed, what people are calling Fentanyl, how is what's happening not being called chemical warfare? Does doing fentanyl give a high or other symptoms that could be called pleasurable? I think crack gives people a high, at least.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Whatever the drug is, and, if it is indeed, what people are calling Fentanyl, how is what's happening not being called chemical warfare? Does doing fentanyl give a high or other symptoms that could be called pleasurable? I think crack gives people a high, at least.

Euphoria is definitely a high.

https://www.dea.gov/sites/defa.../Fentanyl-2020_0.pdf

Fentanyl, similar to other commonly used opioid analgesics (e.g., morphine), produces effects such as relaxation, euphoria, pain relief, sedation, confusion, drowsiness, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, urinary retention, pupillary constriction, and respiratory depression.

quote:

I'm not quite understanding your post. I would imagine since this is on the job that a lab report would be generated.

That’s exactly my point. Almost every professional outside of law enforcement says that it is not possible. If it’s happening, why are these agencies not releasing the lab reports proving it?

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

I'm not quite understanding your post. I would imagine since this is on the job that a lab report would be generated.

That’s exactly my point. Almost every professional outside of law enforcement says that it is not possible. If it’s happening, why are these agencies not releasing the lab reports proving it?

How do you know they aren't, given the dumpster-fire that journalism has become?

College students are dying from taking tiny amounts of counterfeit Adderall bought from online importers. And it's popping up in a slew of other counterfeit meds. This shit is nasty enough to be life threatening to people who inhale an infinitesimal amount.

You wanna argue over whether the name is correct? Nefarious Chinese actors are mounting a significant effort to poison Americans. That should raise eyebrows.

quote:

Originally posted by DoctorSolo:
This shit is nasty enough to be life threatening to people who inhale an infinitesimal amount.

No, it's not. And a Sweet-N-Low packet won't kill 500 people. That's just sensationalist BS from "journalists".

The bad guys are putting something in there, but it isn't fentanyl that's causing all these ODs. And as I've said here before, I don't buy these cops overdosing on fentanyl stories for a second, especially not from an incidental whiff carried on the wind or touching a dry powder with bare hands. Nope.

I, too, would like to see the tox screen.

I wasn't clear enough. It was certainly life threatening to those cops.

I think it's very possible that the adulterant is not necessarily fentanyl.

A lot of people are dying from something being laced into drugs that have not been considered lethal in the past.

I know you don't give a shit Gustovsen. I don't give a shit, that you don't give a shit.

I've never said that I don't give a shit, just that I don't buy that they are ODing on fentanyl.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Then what pray tell do you think is actually happening what are they actually putting in it?

Don't know. But, the fact of the matter is that you cannot absorb fentanyl powder through your skin and an incidental whiff of it will not give you enough to cause an overdose death. I, too, would like to know what the agent is.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

I would assume you agree that the illegal drugs that they call methamphetamine, heroin, and, (I don't know another drug) opium are the chemical equivalents of the legal drugs, right? So why do you think they're calling this Fentanyl when you obviously have the expertise to know what the illegal drug is is not Fentanyl?

OK, I'll go out a limb and guess (only a guess) that the drug that is killing folks is called "carfentanil". My very, very limited understanding is that carfentanil is very concentrated and very potent. I understand that carfentanil is one of the drugs that is being used in Africa to anesthetize very large animals.

Many years ago, a drug representative mentioned carfentanil but told me that he wasn't supposed to talk about it because the military was studying it as a weapon. He told me that researchers were anesthetizing cows and horses by putting a drop of the stuff on their noses and that would drop them. This is all hearsay, though!!

The reason that I don't like these deaths being blamed on fentanyl, especially in the media, is that it scares the hell out of some patients. If they ask me if I will be giving them fentanyl, I can't lie. I then have to explain to them that the media has it wrong and they are then put in a position to decide who is lying to them ....me or the media.

Found this on Wikipedia:

In the late 2010s, some media outlets began to report stories of police officers being hospitalized after touching powdered fentanyl, or after brushing it from their clothing. Topical (or transdermal; via the skin) and inhalative exposure to fentanyl is extremely unlikely to cause intoxication or overdose (except in cases of prolonged exposure with very large quantities of fentanyl), and first responders such as paramedics and police officers are at minimal risk of fentanyl poisoning through accidental contact with intact skin. A 2020 article from the Journal of Medical Toxicology stated that "the consensus of the scientific community remains that illness from unintentional exposures is extremely unlikely, because opioids are not efficiently absorbed through the skin and are unlikely to be carried in the air." The effects being reported in these cases, including rapid heartbeat, hyperventilation and chills, were not symptoms of a fentanyl overdose, and were more commonly associated with a panic attack.

A 2021 paper expressed concern that these physical fears over fentanyl may inhibit effective emergency response to overdoses by causing responding officers to spend additional time on unnecessary precautions. The media coverage could also perpetuate a wider social stigma that people who use drugs are dangerous to be around.

Link to carfentanil.

quote:

Carfentanil has approximately 10,000 times the analgesic potency of morphine, 4,000 times the potency of heroin, and 20 to 100 times the potency of fentanyl in animal studies.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 229DAK,

quote:

Originally posted by mike28w:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

I would assume you agree that the illegal drugs that they call methamphetamine, heroin, and, (I don't know another drug) opium are the chemical equivalents of the legal drugs, right? So why do you think they're calling this Fentanyl when you obviously have the expertise to know what the illegal drug is is not Fentanyl?

OK, I'll go out a limb and guess (only a guess) that the drug that is killing folks is called "carfentanil". My very, very limited understanding is that carfentanil is very concentrated and very potent. I understand that carfentanil is one of the drugs that is being used in Africa to anesthetize very large animals.

Many years ago, a drug representative mentioned carfentanil but told me that he wasn't supposed to talk about it because the military was studying it as a weapon. He told me that researchers were anesthetizing cows and horses by putting a drop of the stuff on their noses and that would drop them. This is all hearsay, though!!

The reason that I don't like these deaths being blamed on fentanyl, especially in the media, is that it scares the hell out of some patients. If they ask me if I will be giving them fentanyl, I can't lie. I then have to explain to them that the media has it wrong and they are then put in a position to decide who is lying to them ....me or the media.

Okay. Thanks for explaining. The part about reps not being allowed to talk about the other drug sounds "conspiracy theory" but, given the current state of affairs, is quite plausible. I have no basis or reason to disagree with your guess.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

I'm not quite understanding your post. I would imagine since this is on the job that a lab report would be generated.

That’s exactly my point. Almost every professional outside of law enforcement says that it is not possible. If it’s happening, why are these agencies not releasing the lab reports proving it?

Okay. And I'm not arguing with you; I just want to make sure you're not holding any other information back whether it's fact or your speculation.

These people are having interactions with what is reported as Fentanyl and you agree with outside professionals who say these are not possible with Fentanyl. But we don't hear corrections or clarifications afterwards that say, "well, this officer was affected by XYZ drug instead of Fentanyl."

I understand you may not know why the agencies are releasing the reports are are asking why but, more to the point, do you have any reasoned guess as to why no corrections or clarifications have been issued afterwards? At this point, the only thing I can surmise is that these different police departments say, "Well, we know it's not Fentanyl but something else. But let's keep the people in their ignorance continuing to think it's Fentanyl." I can't come up with a Machiavellian motivation they may have.

Reading between the lines to several of the interesting and informative responses to this thread, I get the impression that the subject of whether Fentanyl is the drug responsible for the opioid OD crisis in the US has been discussed/ argued before on the forum.

In starting this thread, it was NOT my intention to malign any professionals or ignite an argument. When I first heard about this incident this morning, after reading a couple articles and watching a couple videos, and seeing the effects of whatever substance is causing our LEOs / First Responders to get dangerously ill, my first thought was just to put the story out as a reminder and for informational purposes only... I was posting out of concern for any of our members who may be affected.

I plead ignorance on the topic of Fentanyl and Carfentanil, having only relied on the medias', politicians', and surviving family members' call for action on this opioid crisis.

But I'm more than open to being educated on this topic, and I do appreciate reading the input from anyone, and especially from those with professional experience.

Those of you questioning whether Fentanyl is the opioid responsible for the crisis make some good points.

I'm hoping that we can continue to discuss this topic rationally, factually, and respectfully.

At this point in the discussion I'm going to leave Fentanyl in the thread subject line and in the OP, only because that is what the linked sources are reporting it as.

From the wiki link that Rey HRH posted, my emphasis added in bold :

Carfentanil is an analogue of fentanyl and is also known as (4-methoxycarbonyl)fentanyl. Related analogues of fentanyl include 4-phenylfentanyl, lofentanil (3-methylcarfentanyl), N-methylcarfentanil, R-30490 (4-methoxymethylfentanyl), sufentanil, and thiafentanil.

My chemistry is decades old and I was never that good at it when I was in class.

I would think that before any charges are brought against a suspect arrested with an unknown but potentially illegal substance, that the substance would be first analyzed and identified, and I would assume these labs could identify whether the substance was Fentanyl or Carfentanil.

How are so many suspects being charged for selling/ distributing Fentanyl if the illegal substance is Carfentanil?

Do these lab reports used for criminal charges not distinguish which it is, and simply list the illegal substance as an opioid?

quote:

do you have any reasoned guess as to why no corrections or clarifications have been issued afterwards?

This isn’t just a police thing. Many people have claimed that they had a reaction to a drug that required intervention after an incidental contact.

My guess is that it’s not an OD at all, and testing would find no evidence of the drug in their system. Were that the case, we’d be seeing press conferences and copies of the lab results.

I’m around a lot of paper money. I’m also pretty sure I find myself in the presence of drug traffickers from time to time. If I could die from inhaling a speck of something they may have present in the areas I’m working, I’d sure like to know.

What we do know is that people appear to be ODing on fentanyl. Those people are then treated with Narcan and taken to the hospital. We know that opiates, especially in enough quantity to cause an OD are detectable in both blood and urine. So let’s see some actual science to prove it for sure one way or another.

Is the Fentanyl you use pure, or is it diluted to make it easier to handle/use?

quote:

Originally posted by mike28w:
I wish that folks would quit calling this "fentanyl".

As an anesthetist since 1984, I have handled and administered remifentanil, fentanyl and sufentanil( much more potent and concentrated than fentanyl) on a daily basis. I know how these drugs work and what effects they have on people. That my job!

Countless times, I have accidently spilled or splashed small amounts of these drugs on my skin. I have even accidentally been squirted in the face with these drugs. I have NEVER had any kind of adverse reaction to these drugs, nor have I experienced any kind of noticeable effects at all. This leads me to the conclusion that while there is definitely a drug on the street that is an opioid, it is most definitely NOT fentanyl.