quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
I think if they DON'T repeal it the republican party disintegrates.

Whoa! Whoa.

No, guy.

Does "Obamacare" need fixin'? For sure.

But it's just the floor show. A lot of talk has forced Republicans to do _something_. It's up to them not to fistfuck us all with their "solution."

But it is hardly the end of the party.


For SERIOUS BRAH! The Democratic Party is in a tailspin, and that is an optimistic assessment. I don't just say this because that is what all the press says. It is my experience from talking to a host of lib/dems, that they are frozen in time at the moment they lost the election for President, and the reality at that time was that the party was on the skids.

Can the GOP fuck itself? Absolutely, and let us hope they do not. But, I will say this, in the long run it's not important.

Why? Because the key thing that a Trump win gave us, was the Supreme Court. Let's keep in mind that "establishment" Republicans weren't behind the man until the votes were in.

A shitty Obamacare replacement isn't a good thing, but it is far, far from the end of the party.

Not only are they not repealing it, but they are taking ownership of it. To me that's even worse.

quote:

Originally posted by stoic-one:

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1: simple reforms like allowing health insurance to be sold across state lines?

I know very little about the way insurance companies work, but hear this all the time. What is it that makes selling across state lines such an advantage? Don't most companies have a presence in multiple states already?

Increased pricing competition.

Less overhead.

What?? It will allow the insurance companies to charge elderly patients up to five times higher premiums, with O'bummer care it was three times.

I disagree that they *must* do something *now*, and can recognize that this current plan is a colossally bad one. They need to slow the fuck down and chill the fuck out, for a minute. There are plenty of other pans in the fire to tend to. It's premature, and worse.

Re-branding Obamacare, barely changing it, and taking ownership of that failure and giant overreach - forever leaving us with RyanCare or the like - is the very antithesis of what I want from this Administration, and the wrong answer on healthcare to boot.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
Not only are they not repealing it, but they are taking ownership of it. To me that's even worse.

At this point this is what scares me. We may get stuck with it on our hands. There really is no way to fix it now. Once given free shit and artificial insurance costs, no one wants to give that up. My feeling is costs aren't going to drop that much, government liabilities won't drop either, and perceived or real any cut in benefits is racist/misogynistic/bigoted/hateful/fascist/meany pants.

I hope this doesn't blow up in our faces. Kind of looks like a trap.

I've seen enough pissing and panic in this thread. If you guys want to wring your hands and declare the end of the world, do it elsewhere.

Any new threads on this subject will be locked on sight.

Locked

If we can discuss the matter without the hyperbole, and with the knowledge that nothing is yet determined, you may proceed.

If we get back to the same gloom-and-doom horse shit, with dire and unfounded predictions and hand-wringing, it's going to go right back to locked and then this will be a permanent state of affairs.

It's up to you guys.

I hope that any bill short of a full repeal dies on President Trump's desk under the weight of a Presidential veto.

I shall be imploring him to do just that to any bill short of a repeal.

March 14, 2017
Two Tweaks for ‘Ryancare’
By Jon N. Hall

The structure and character of the federal government is largely the creation of Democrats. From Woodrow Wilson to FDR to LBJ to Barack Hussein Obama, every time progressive Democrats seize the presidency and Congress, they expand the size and scope of the central government. When Republicans recapture power, they are either unable or unwilling to roll back the Dems’ expansions. And so, the New Deal, the Great Society, and quite likely ObamaCare become permanent parts of government, and the Leviathan continues to grow.

Although Republicans have promised for years to “repeal and replace” ObamaCare, since the March 7 unveiling of their replacement plan we see division in their ranks. The replacement plan is called the “American Health Care Act.” But let’s call it “RyanCare.” In its current form, RyanCare appears better than ObamaCare, (that’s a low bar to clear). But RyanCare has some of the same problems as ObamaCare. Herein are two tweaks to improve the bill.

One of the big pluses of RyanCare is that it ends the mandates. The employer mandate is a huge drag on the economy and the individual mandate may be fascistic. But the reason the hated mandates were part of the ObamaCare is so insurance companies could accommodate “guaranteed issue” and “community rating,” which supposedly make it possible for “pre-existing conditions” to be covered. The idea was to enlarge the pool of policyholders with healthy young people so that the sickest among us could be paid for. RyanCare retains the two requirements: “Prohibit health insurers from denying coverage or charging more money to patients based on pre-existing conditions.”

Without the mandates, how’s that going to work?

One way for insurance companies to continue covering pre-existing conditions without the mandates for healthy people to buy health insurance is to raise premium prices, deductibles, copays, etc., of those who choose to buy insurance. Even under ObamaCare, we’re seeing a rise in those costs. A better solution would be this: end the “guaranteed issue” and “community rating” requirements for private health insurance companies. That’s the first of the two tweaks.

Democrats are enamored of all things “comprehensive.” And so it is with ObamaCare, which is a comprehensive makeover of the U.S. healthcare system. Not only did the new system intrude into business and people’s lives, it further intertwined the public and the private by creating a new entitlement: federal subsidies for the purchase of private health insurance. Unfortunately, RyanCare features a similar system: “Help Americans access affordable, quality health care by providing a monthly tax credit -- between $2,000 and $14,000 a year -- for low- and middle-income individuals and families who don’t receive insurance through work or a government program.”

Although RyanCare’s tax credit program would work differently than ObamaCare’s subsidy program, it still amounts to a new entitlement; it’s still an open-ended draw on the treasury. And just like ObamaCare, it involves the IRS. But here’s the thing: we already have a healthcare program for those who can’t afford to pay health insurance premiums; it’s called Medicaid. Rather than instituting another entitlement, Republicans might put those receiving ObamaCare subsidies into Medicaid. But regardless of what Congress does about ObamaCare’s subsidy enrollees, the proposed tax credit program should be dropped. And there’s your tweak number two.

Of course, some ObamaCare subsidy users won’t like being thrown into Medicaid because not all doctors accept Medicaid. But if one can’t afford to pay the full price for something, including private health insurance, then one shouldn’t get it; one should have to settle for whatever charity is doling out, whether from private sources or the government. If Medicaid is a lousy system, well then, fix Medicaid. But don’t create a whole new entitlement when the ones already on the books have serious problems.

Although there are things to like in RyanCare, it has retained two of the worst features of Obamacare, and neither feature is conservative. The tax credits are a new entitlement. And by retaining “pre-existing conditions,” RyanCare continues to treat the health insurance industry like a public utility or some government social safety net. Why not let businesses operate like businesses? Without the mandates, “guaranteed issue” and “community rating” are a prescription for higher premiums for everyone in an insurance pool.

The genius of Democrats is that they get folks addicted to “free stuff,” knowing that if the GOP even talks about taking it away, Republicans will be seen as Nazis. (But ObamaCare is a fascist system, as it’s an intertwining of public and private. The decision in NFIB v. Sebelius, which put the Supreme Court’s seal of approval on the coercive individual mandate, should be seen in that light.)

The GOP is not the Santa Claus party, and may not be able to “win” on healthcare. Perhaps Republicans should look elsewhere for wins, such as getting the economy into a higher gear, tax reform, and balancing the budget. Congress is running a half-trillion-dollar deficit this year. I remember a time when Paul Ryan would warn folks about a looming “debt crisis.” Whatever happened to that guy?

Speaker Ryan has talked recently about the unique opportunity conservatives have to set the ship of state aright. But the grog with which he’s filling our tankards is Democrat Light, and it’s not even chilled. As currently configured, RyanCare won’t do much to roll back the Leviathan state.

http://www.americanthinker.com...ks_for_ryancare.html

How did America become the most prosperous, powerful, and free country on Earth before Obamacare ?.......before any such thing as health insurance at all ?
....a country in which the biggest health threat to "the poor" is OBESITY-RELATED DISEASE ?!?!?

The biggest success that socialism has had is in convincing us that the government "needs" to do things for us. It is actually all the government intervention and subsidy that is driving the cost of healthcare up.

quote:

But if one can’t afford to pay the full price for something, including private health insurance, then one shouldn’t get it; one should have to settle for whatever charity is doling out, whether from private sources or the government.

Sorry slick, government can't do charity as it has no money of its own. Government does nothing but wealth transfer from the makers to the takers, usually in return for votes.

I took almost three hours last evening to read the RyanCare bill. Other than using it as a fire starter, I little to no value in it. This is 'not' what we were promised for upwards of four years by this cabal of liars and nitwits, and has nothing to do with the conservative principles they drone on about constantly. If RyanCare is the best the GOPe thinks it can do, then just pass a simple repeal bill on 51 votes in the senate and be done with it. 'Or', keep heading down this path, playing chicken with a freight train, and watch the political careers of a whole lot of Republicans ended in 2018 by even more pissed over voters.

quote:

If RyanCare is the best the GOPe thinks it can do, then just pass a simple repeal bill on 51 votes in the senate and be done with it.

They voted 14 months ago on a simple repeal bill. Why not do that again? Surely, Trump would sign it.
Then... some simple reforms to the areas where government acts to impede the ability of people to buy what they want and can afford. What we have is a crisis caused by too much government involvement in health care and insurance (which are not the same thing). It won't be solved by government other that by mostly getting out of the way.

Ryan backed away Wednesday from his previous rhetoric of calling the measure’s fate a “binary choice” for Republican lawmakers.

That's progress at least.

Holding their feet to the fire:

Conservatives Stormed Congress To Remind Republicans About Their Promise To Repeal Obamacare: Don’t Say We’ll Try–--Do It.

Matt Vespa
|
Conservatives Stormed Congress To Remind Republicans About Their Promise To Repeal Obamacare: Don’t Say We’ll Try–Do It.

On Wednesday, conservative activists braved the brutal wind chills in Washington D.C. to remind Republican lawmakers of their promises to repeal and replace Obamacare. The event hosted by FreedomWorks, began with a series of speakers, including Rep. Dave Brat (R-VA), Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX), Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), and Rep. Mark Meadows (R-NC), and Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT), at Upper Senate Park.

“Keep your promise,” barked a man in the crowd.

“Full repeal,” yelled another attendee.

“Scrap the bill, ditch Ryan,” howled another man.

As wind and snow flurries chilled these die-hard activists to the bone, Sen. Paul took to the podium, saying that the House leadership was “weak-kneed.”

“We want to be free of Obamacare,” he said. Speaking of his Republican colleagues, Paul said, “They need to discover that they don’t have your votes,” urging FreedomWorks activists to get out there and keep up the pressure. Why?

“We want to be free of Obamacare,” Paul said. “We’re not campaigning for Obamacare lite,” he added, while noting that this isn’t an event to make sure the health insurance companies get a bailout as well.

“I’ll keep fighting, hang in there,” said the Kentucky senator as he made his exit.

Sirius XM Patriot’s Andrew Wilkow, who was broadcasting live from the park, served as the master of ceremonies, introduced Tea Party Patriots’ Jenny Beth Martin, who said that this is a fight for the forgotten man and woman. She also thanked the crowd for what they have done for the past eight years in trying to make D.C. listen to the people.

“Congress, keep your promises,” she said.

Dr. Chad Mathis, a doctor in Birmingham, Alabama said that it was time to drain the swamp and have patient-centered health care. Rep. Mark Meadows (R-NC) said that there is a whole lot to be said about the forgotten man, woman, and factory worker. He also reiterated the GO promise to repeal Obamacare, not just part of it.

“Doing anything less than what we promised the American people should not be acceptable,” he said.

The congressman added that their voice matters—noting how the GOP establishment was now singing a different tune on adding amendments to the bill. Meadows said that in the end, the conservative movement would be judged on this health care fight, not a Congressional Budget Office score. He also said it doesn’t matter if what we do sends us—conservatives in Congress—home. It’s the right thing to do.

Rep. Jim Jordan (R-OH) said that their job isn’t hard; it’s doing what they promised the voters over the past seven years. Sen. Cruz said, “we have a mandate for change” after the 2016 elections. He added that the GOP is out of excuses, the time for talk is over, and now is the time for action. He warned if the Republican Party screws this up—and he admitted that this is a possibility—the GOP would be a laughingstock. The conservative firebrand said we have to deliver on our promises and that test will be manifested in curbing skyrocketing premiums.

In between speakers, Wilkow said, “this is the last chance to stop Establishment care.”

“If you don’t think we’re on our way to single payer if the AHCA passes, you’re nuts,” he added.

One of the main points of contention was the current bill keeping the Medicaid expansion intact.

“Our activists are incensed at the betrayal of Paul Ryan and House Republican leadership. Instead of following through on years and years of campaign promises and repealing Obamacare outright, they want to create a new entitlement program and a backdoor individual mandate,” said FreedomWorks President Adam Brandon. “Even the savings that Ryan and Republican leaders are boasting about are suspect because Medicaid expansion, which supposedly ends at the beginning of 2020, will likely become the new Medicare ‘doc fix.’”

Once the speakers were done, activists walked to the nearby Russell Senate Building, where they stood for well over an hour in the freezing cold as they waited to get through security. Townhall was embedded with a group from North/South Carolina.

On woman, Melissa Gainey of Wilmington, North Carolina said that she felt Sen. Cruz was right to call this bill Obamacare lite.

“He stands by what he says,” she said. She felt the current bill is “not enough,” and that it would be just be easier for a full repeal. She also hopes that Congress can work on allowing companies to sell insurance across state lines and make health care more affordable.

Kharin Gibson of Southport, North Carolina, who works for the magazine Cape Fear Living, just came from an attempted meeting with Sen. Richard Burr (R-NC), where she said, “we were ushered out quickly.”

“He did not make an appearance,” she said. “He should be here.”

As we walked the halls of Russell, Gibson added that one person had tried to meet with Burr nine times but he’s never been in the office. She said she was a “little perturbed and disappointed.” From what they could gather from his staff, she told Townhall that there were no answers, a lot was up in the air, and that everyone left without a sense of real leadership.

A meeting with a staffer from Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) was also intense at times, with activists dealing that the GOP repeal and replace Obamacare, citing that health care is not a right in the Constitution.

They held a faux vote in the conference room across the hall from the senator’s office, where they all ‘voted aye’ for repeal and replace. Towards the end, the message from is group was clear concerning repealing Obamacare: stop trying, stand up, and just do it; that’s what we voted for. That’s what you told us.

Donna McKinney of Myrtle Beach said she felt “brushed off” by the Graham office. She seemed frustrated at the “I don’t know, we’ll try, we’re going to try” ethos that she hears from GOP lawmakers.

“I got nothing from this, other than an opportunity to yell, to vent my feelings and to let people know what’s at stake,” she said. Well, that mindset of letting people vent, laying out what’s at stake, and acting upon it, gave the GOP the House, the Senate, and the presidency. It’s made the GOP the dominant political force in the country. And these activists will keep venting.

Leping Beck, the publisher for Cape Fear Living, described the whole Storm Congress event as “awesome.”

“It’s great. That’s what Democracy is all about,” she said. Speaking of those who were passionate about these issues, Beck said, “They were ignored. These people have been hurting and they’re hard working taxpayers.”

“You can’t ignore half the country,” she added.

These folks aren’t going away either. One FreedomWorks staffer said that due to the inclement weather, D.C. was hit with a snowstorm earlier this week; a West Virginia group’s bus was cancelled. Half of the members from that group drove in on their own to make sure Congress kept their promise. That’s dedication. Come hell of high water, conservatives are going to be there reminding Republicans you promised to repeal Obamacare—not giving us a bill that’s Obamacare lite. A criticism that isn’t far-fetched:

What pieces of Obamacare stay:

A lot, including almost all of the consumer protections and market reforms. Here's some of what's staying in place:
Protections for pre-existing conditions. Insurers still won't be able to deny sick people coverage, and they won't be able to charge them more than healthy people.
Children will be able to stay on their parents' plan until age 26.
No lifetime or annual limits on insurance coverage.
Private plans must cover a set of "essential health benefits." (Though they don't have to cover as much of a patient's total health care costs as under Obamacare.)
There's a limit on out-of-pocket costs passed along to private plan enrollees.

What pieces of Obamacare will either go away or be changed
How health coverage is subsidized and paid for within that regulatory structure.
The individual and employer mandates are repealed. The individual mandate is replaced with a continuous coverage provision allowing insurers to charge extra to people who didn't keep themselves insured.
Medicaid expansion is eventually phased out, and the way the federal government funds the program is massively reformed.
Obamacare's premium subsidies, which are tied to income and the cost of premiums on exchanges, are replaced with an age-adjusted refundable tax credit.
Nearly all of Obamacare's industry taxes are repealed, along with taxes on high earners. The exception is the Cadillac tax on expensive employer plan benefits, which is delayed until 2025.
The use of health savings accounts is expanded.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/...ll-trydo-it-n2300645

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by Paragon:
I want to trust Trump. But is someone pulling the wool over his eyes? I can't believe that either.

No one is pulling the wool over his eyes, he is being realistic. You can 'fight' all you want, but unless you have a plan that you can get 8 democrat senators plus all RINOs and conservative republicans to vote for, then you don't have anything.

There is not a plan that could be put together that would get that kind of support. All the carping about 'caving in', etc is silly.

I say to them: put your plan on the table along with your list of democrat senators who support it or shut up and start working in reality.

I've read your posts in this thread. I am confused at this point.

We can repeal the whole thing with 51 votes, but it takes 60 votes to modify it?

What would be wrong with repealing and then adding back in piecemeal what is wanted. Could we then not use the things the democrats want in it as bargaining chips to get what we want and water down what they want?

All of the plans are now set for the next 9 months, it's not like all the people will loose their coverage, they already have a contract. This will give about three months to get a new piece of legislation in place, and 4-5 months for insurance companies to write new plans. People could then review them in late Nov. and sign up for whatever they want by mid Dec.

Where am I going wrong in this, or could it be done this way?

---

Another option is do nothing just to wait until 2018 prices come out and a few more coops and insurance compaies fail or quit the individual market. At that point the democrats should be begging for anything to stop the hemorrhaging from individuals, businesses, and insurance companies. The ones that voted for this POS ACA, should be begging to look for a way out.

the republicans as a party had seven years to come up with a plan

seven years to craft together a plan, look for the deficiencies and get something they could collectively agree on

in seven years what did they do?

nothing

in seven years what did they talk about?

Obamacare

the republicans are as bad if not worse than the democrats - you expect the democrats to lie to your face

the republicans just proved they've been doing the same thing so can someone tell me what the difference is between a republican and a democrat?

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
We can repeal the whole thing with 51 votes, but it takes 60 votes to modify it?

What would be wrong with repealing and then adding back in piecemeal what is wanted. Could we then not use the things the democrats want in it as bargaining chips to get what we want and water down what they want?

All of the plans are now set for the next 9 months, it's not like all the people will loose their coverage, they already have a contract. This will give about three months to get a new piece of legislation in place, and 4-5 months for insurance companies to write new plans. People could then review them in late Nov. and sign up for whatever they want by mid Dec.

Where am I going wrong in this, or could it be done this way?

I totally agree.

It takes 51 in the Senate, and a majority in the House to repeal. That's how it passed.

So repeal it with an effective date that gives time for unwinding/rewinding insurance policies, and enough time to hammer out anything needed to further deregulate and improve efficiency. But for Pete's sake, start from pre-2009, not the clusterf* we had to 'pass to find out what was in it.'

Into the chaos that follows (if indeed any chaos follows) there will be an opportunity to build a coalition to start over, with no devil-in-the-details nonsense like Obamacare 'death panels' device taxes, etc. And if no 60-vote-worthy improvements can be found, let the chips fall where they lay.

Ron Paul: Obamacare Repeal Or Obamacare 2.0?

Mar 20, 2017

Authored by Ron Paul via The Ron Paul Institute for Peace & Prosperity,

This Thursday, the House of Representatives will vote on a Republican bill that supposedly repeals Obamacare. However, the bill retains Obamacare’s most destructive features.



That is not to say this legislation is entirely without merit. For example, the bill expands the amount individuals can contribute to a health savings account (HSA). HSAs allow individuals to save money tax-free to pay for routine medical expenses. By restoring individuals’ control over healthcare dollars, HSAs remove the distortions introduced in the healthcare market by government policies encouraging over-reliance on third-party payers.

The legislation also contains other positive tax changes, such a provision allowing individuals to use healthcare tax credits to purchase a "catastrophic-only" insurance policy. Ideally, health insurance should only cover major or catastrophic health events. No one expects their auto insurance to cover routine oil changes, so why should they expect health insurance to cover routine checkups?

Unfortunately the bill’s positive aspects are more than outweighed by its failure to repeal Obamacare's regulations and price controls. Like all price controls, Obamacare distorts the signals that a freely functioning marketplace sends to consumers and producers, thus guaranteeing chaos in the marketplace. The result of this chaos is higher prices, reduced supply, and lowered quality.

Two particularly insidious Obamacare regulations are guaranteed issue and community ratings. As the name suggests, guaranteed issue forces health insurance companies to issue a health insurance policy to anyone who applies for coverage. Community ratings forces health insurance companies to charge an obese couch potato and a physically-fit jogger similar premiums. This forces the jogger to subsidize the couch potato’s unhealthy lifestyle.

Obamacare’s individual mandate was put in place to ensure that guaranteed issue and community ratings would not drive health insurance companies out of business. Rather than repealing guaranteed issue and community ratings, the House Republicans’ plan forces those who go longer than two months without health insurance to pay a penalty to health insurance companies when they purchase new policies.

It is hard to feel sympathy for the insurance companies since they supported Obamacare. These companies were eager to accept government regulations in exchange for a mandate that individuals buy their product. But we should feel sympathy for Americans who are struggling to afford, or even obtain, healthcare because of Obamacare and who will obtain little or no relief from Obamacare 2.0.

The underlying problem with the Republican proposal is philosophical. The plan put forth by the alleged pro-free-market Republicans implicitly accepts the premise that healthcare is a right that must be provided by government. But rights are inalienable aspects of our humanity, not gifts from government.

If government can give us rights, then it can also limit or even take away those rights. Giving government power to enforce a fictitious right to healthcare justifies government theft and coercion. Thievery and violence do not suddenly become moral when carried out by governments.

Treating healthcare as a right leads to government intervention, which, as we have seen, inevitably leads to higher prices and lower quality. This is why, with the exception of those specialties, like plastic surgery, that are still treated as goods, not rights, healthcare is one of the few areas where innovation leads to increased costs.

America’s healthcare system will only be fixed when a critical mass of people rejects the philosophical and economic fallacies justifying government-run healthcare. Those of us who know the truth must continue to work to spread the ideas of, and grow the movement for, liberty.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/...peal-or-obamacare-20

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
the republicans as a party had seven years to come up with a plan

seven years to craft together a plan, look for the deficiencies and get something they could collectively agree on

in seven years what did they do?

nothing

in seven years what did they talk about?

Obamacare

the republicans are as bad if not worse than the democrats - you expect the democrats to lie to your face

the republicans just proved they've been doing the same thing so can someone tell me what the difference is between a republican and a democrat?

Oh geez,

quote:

Originally posted by Ron Paul:
Obamacare Repeal Or Obamacare 2.0?
The underlying problem with the Republican proposal is philosophical. The plan put forth by the alleged pro-free-market Republicans implicitly accepts the premise that healthcare is a right that must be provided by government. But rights are inalienable aspects of our humanity, not gifts from government.

If government can give us rights, then it can also limit or even take away those rights. Giving government power to enforce a fictitious right to healthcare justifies government theft and coercion. Thievery and violence do not suddenly become moral when carried out by governments.

+1,000,000