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Dances with Wiener Dogs |
IOW, a subsidy. A welfare check for the "poor" (people who vote for welfare state).
I'm all in favor of getting rid of any and all subsidies.
I always thought HSA's should be encouraged, but the rules simplified. WAY too many tax laws that apply. Almost like you need a tax lawyer every time you go to the doctor. Eliminate the complexity. But apparently that's not happening.
How gracious that they'll "permit" insurance companies to charge per actuarial tables. And they'll graciously "allow" states to spend their money as they see fit.
This should be a state issue. No need for the feds to insert themselves here. If there is demand for it, insurance companies will make it happen.
Again, this should be a state issue. Nothing to involve the feds here. Since insurance isn't sold across state lines, it's not a federal issue. Butt out DC.
Yeah, let's get the IRS involved. THAT should simplify things. NOT.
Penalties never should have been there to begin had it not been for Roberts on SCOTUS.
Yep. And after the GOP carping about ObamaCAIR for all these years and passing all those repeal bills when they KNEW it wouldn't pass a veto, this bill stinks of cowardice and lack of any real grasp of the issue. _______________________ “The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” Ayn Rand “If we relinquish our rights because of fear, what is it exactly, then, we are fighting for?” Sen. Rand Paul | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
BamaJeepster, I appreciate your POV and your enthusiasm for this proposal... You make good political points. Repeal takes 51 votes in the Senate, replacement takes 60 votes. I can understand and appreciate that. Nevertheless, these guys ran on a full repeal. Just DO IT! I'm with Rand Paul on that.
Really?!? Total chaos? Blood in the streets? Have some faith in humanity, in freedom, and in the market, my man! Was it really that horrible without Obamacare? Do you really think that there will be "no alternatives" for the uninsured? No charity? No insurance company will step up and attempt to fill a huge potential market? No alternatives to what we think of as "health insurance"... which does not equate to health care, mind you? Take a look at: The Value of the Free Market to Self-Funded Employers http://fmma.org/wp-content/upl...ed-Employers-FMF.pdf and at free market alternatives generally: The free market movement in healthcare is vital to fixing the problems with our country’s current healthcare delivery system. The Free Market Medical Association was founded based on three pillars: Price, Value, and Equality. These pillars are essential to the long term success of self-funded health plans. https://fmma.org/education/ As for replacement... "owning" a new entitlement would be a complete sell-out. There are plenty of good, free-market ideas like selling across state lines and HSAs. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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Info Guru |
Just to be clear - personally I would go even further than many here on healthcare. There should be no tax breaks or incentives for businesses to offer healthcare. Plans should be individually owned, portable anywhere in the US and no restrictions on where insurance companies can operate (no state lines) and they could offer whatever plans they wanted to offer. That will never, ever happen though, so it's time to be realistic. A plan like I outlined or like many conservatives are calling for would not garner 10% support in the country - it will never, ever happen and certainly not with this Congress. Just pulling the rug out from under people who are covered now and telling them 'too bad for you' is a recipe for a complete and total disaster. You think the dems in Congress paid a price for Obamacare, just yank it with no replacement and dems will control everything for a generation. Every media outlet will run multiple daily stories of people with cancer who now have no coverage and are going without care and declaring bankruptcy. Surely you know this to be true. This bill is not designed to be the final word, it's designed to be step 1 in a 3 step process. I'm willing to support it and see where it ends. At that point conservatives can fight for whatever plan they think is best and can get support for. I've still seen no realistic scenario where you get democrats to vote for a republican alternative. Without that, this is just an academic debate. “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams | |||
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Now in Florida |
The worst thing about this bill is that it lets the Democrats off the hook for Obamacare while replacing it with a system that is only slightly less bad. It takes the issue that gave Republicans full control of the government and many states and turns it into a negative for us. This is not what we were promised, and I think this has the potential to really hurt Trump with his supporters. | |||
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| Info Guru |
What is your alternative plan and which 8 democrat senators will support it? “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
I think you are right about that. Currently, at least half the country doesn't see healthcare as an 'entitlement'. If it's the Republicans who firmly entrench an Obamacare 'entitlement' mentality... then God help us. It will lead to the end of the Republican party and the end of faith in the idea that voting matters. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
While I agree with this line of thinking, that it isn't what we were promised - I don't think conservatives are going to throw their hands in the air and say "forget it, I'm fine with D control of everything from now on". Especially after the last 6 weeks of their shrill over everything... Politics is politics, but to quit because one thing doesn't go our way is childish. | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
Of course we are not going to quit... ever. Soapbox Ballot box Ammo box "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Info Guru |
No soapbox is going to counter the daily heartbreaking stories of people who died with no coverage and their family bankrupt. What is your alternative plan and which 8 democrat senators are going to vote for it? (I'm going to keep asking until someone who opposes this plan answers) “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
I will answer your question: No democrat senators are going to vote for any market based plan. And any top-down government control approach is doomed to failure. Right now: Dems own the failure. Republicans should not sign on to it.
It's already total chaos. Let the Dems and the MSM squeal all they want. Once it's fully repealed, then and only then might pass some needed reforms pass. A few days ago, Ted Cruz laid out a free market vision for repealing ObamaCare. The key ideas included full repeal, combined with regulatory and tax changes that would undo the decades-old bias in favor of employer-based health care and allow greater competition. These key ideas are nowhere to be found in the new bill, which retains the basic regulatory structure of ObamaCare. Many Republicans won’t know what to think, because they don’t really understand the free market or why it’s important. So they will look to a leader and follow that leader. If Hillary Clinton had proposed simply amending ObamaCare, and renaming and tinkering with its subsidies, these same people would have flown off the handle. For them, the brand is all that matters. Other Republicans will reject this attempt to solidify Democrat interference in the free market under the Republican banner. It’s a schism, and it isn’t going away. six specific proposals: “allow consumers to purchase insurance across state lines... expand health savings accounts... change the tax laws to make health insurance portable…protect continuous coverage... allow small businesses to pool together in association plans to get better rates for their employees… [and] block grant Medicaid to the states.” The general idea behind the proposals is to let the free market do its magic. I hope Republicans who are looking to “replace” ObamaCare decide to “replace” it with the free market. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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The Unmanned Writer |
Anyone here who thinks what the pundits are telling are in this bill and what will pass need to watch this (again): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0 Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. "If dogs don't go to Heaven, I want to go where they go" Will Rogers The definition of the words we used, carry a meaning of their own... | |||
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| Info Guru |
The dems no longer own this because the voters put the republicans in charge and now expect relief. If they don't deliver they will be punished at the ballot box. Do nothing and when 2018 rolls around the dems will control the House and the Senate with healthy margins. Endless investigations and talk of impeachment every day. The republicans HAVE to do something. Getting rid of the mandate is a big first step. “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
The Right Way to Repeal Obamacare By Sen. Ted Cruz March 02, 2017 “Is Obamacare Republicans’ Waterloo?” That was the question a reporter posed a couple weeks ago. It’s the narrative increasingly being pushed by the media, and starting to become conventional wisdom in Washington. My response? What the press doesn’t understand is that Obamacare, in practice, has proven to be a disaster, and it’s hurting millions of people. We’ve had three elections that focused on Obamacare repeal, 2010, 2014 and 2016. All three were massive victories for Republicans. If that’s Waterloo, we could use a few more of them. So, how do we go forward? Here are two overarching principles, three concrete steps and six areas of consensus to guide us. Two overarching principles First principle: Honor our promise. When you spend six years promising, “If only we get elected, we’ll repeal Obamacare,” you cannot renege on that promise. Failure is not an option. Breaking our word would be catastrophe. The voters would, quite rightly, never again trust Republicans to deliver on anything. The second principle is don’t make it worse. The Pottery Barn rule applies: If you break it, you own it. Democrats broke health care: Since Obamacare passed, millions of people have had their plans canceled; average family premiums on employer-sponsored plans have risen by about $5,000; and average family deductibles on the individual market have also risen $5,000. Consumers are paying more for less, and that’s hurting a lot of families. Republicans can’t make it worse; instead, we’ve got to fix the problem. Three concrete steps First, begin with the 2015 repeal language. Senate Democrats have made clear that they will filibuster any attempts to repeal Obamacare, so the only way to get it done is to use a procedural vehicle that can’t be filibustered. Budget reconciliation—a special procedure that by statute requires only 51 votes to clear the Senate—fits the bill. The hurdle is that budget reconciliation is governed by complicated procedural rules; only legislation that is budgetary in nature is permissible. And it is the Senate parliamentarian who typically decides whether a given proposal is allowed on reconciliation. In 2015, Congress passed language on reconciliation repealing most of Obamacare. Virtually every Republican in Congress voted for that language, and the parliamentarian has already ruled it as permissible. We should begin with that previously approved repeal language as the baseline. Second, repeal the insurance regulations as well. In 2015, these coverage mandates of Obamacare were excluded from the repeal language. The parliamentarian never ruled on whether including them would be permissible on reconciliation. But we’ve got to repeal those mandates. Why? The single biggest factor driving popular dissatisfaction with Obamacare is skyrocketing premiums. And the insurance mandates are the biggest factor driving those premiums. If we “repeal” Obamacare, and leave the insurance mandates in place, the premiums paid by families will remain sky-high. And that’s unacceptable—voters would rightly deem repeal a farce if we don’t actually drive premiums down to where they’re affordable again. Can we get the mandates repealed on reconciliation? The answer is yes: The mandates are driving up federal expenditures by billions, and so should properly be deemed budgetary in nature. But if the parliamentarian disagrees, the vice president has the statutory and constitutional authority (as does the Senate majority) to rule to the contrary. And that’s exactly what should happen, if necessary. (It’s not enough to say that some of the mandates can be suspended by the Trump administration. As Barack Obama has discovered, executive action is temporary. The next Democratic president, if able, would surely reimpose the mandates. We cannot allow that to happen.) Third, we should focus on areas of consensus among Republicans. Don’t try to replace one 2,000-page monstrosity with another. Instead, adopt common-sense specific reforms that will increase competition, drive down costs, expand choices and put patients back in charge of their health care. Six areas of consensus First, we should allow consumers to purchase insurance across state lines. This would create a true 50-state marketplace, driving down costs for everyone. If California wants to mandate that every California insurance company must offer only top-of-the-line comprehensive coverage—driving up premium costs by thousands of dollars—then California consumers should also be able to buy insurance licensed in other states, without the mandates. If you want more access to health insurance, cost is key. If they so desire, consumers should be able to purchase low-cost catastrophic insurance on a nationwide market. Second, we should expand health savings accounts so that consumers can save on a tax-advantaged basis for more ordinary health insurance expenses. Third, we should change the tax laws to make health insurance portable, so that if you lose you job you don’t lose your health insurance. You don’t lose your car insurance or life insurance or house insurance if you lose your job; you shouldn’t lose your health insurance either. And that would go a long way to addressing the problem of pre-existing conditions, since much of that problem stems from people losing their jobs and then not being able to get new coverage on the individual market. Fourth, we should protect continuous coverage. If you have coverage, and you get sick or injured, your health insurance company shouldn’t be able to cancel your policy or jack up your premiums. That’s the whole point of health insurance. Fifth, we should allow small businesses to pool together in association plans to get better rates for their employees. And we should allow states to create high-risk pools or pursue other innovative solutions to insure that the most vulnerable among us have access to affordable health care. Sixth, we should block grant Medicaid to the states. Right now, Medicaid works terribly: very few doctors, long waiting lists and markedly worse health outcomes than for those on private insurance. Much of that is driven by one-size-fits-all federal rules, forced on every state. Instead, we should allow states to innovate with creative solutions to help produce far better health results. Those six ideas enjoy virtual unanimity among Republicans who now control both Congress and the White House. They bring all of us together. They don’t replace one massive federal entitlement that isn’t working with another massive federal program with the same failings. We should implement all six on reconciliation. We can do this, and produce real results. The test for success should be simple: Did health care become more affordable? Do consumers have more choices? Do patients have more control over their families’ health care? If yes, we will have succeeded. We will have honored our promise to the American people. http://www.politico.com/magazi...macare-repeal-214854This message has been edited. Last edited by: chellim1, "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Now in Florida |
From PowerLine: Getting Medicaid Right Excerpt: "HOUSE “REPEAL AND REPLACE” LEGISLATION GETS MEDICAID RIGHT "I found this analysis of the proposed House Obamacare repeal and replace legislation to be a useful starting point in understanding the proposal. The author is “Asclepius,” a sensible sounding guy. "His verdict: The proposal contains sound and much needed Medicaid reforms; sensible but very modest insurance market reforms; and the entirely misguided creation of new subsidies, in the form of tax credits, for participants in the ACA exchanges...." | |||
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| Member |
Perfectly explained. This will be a disaster for the GOP. Worse, they are already looking like buffoons considering they have spent the last 4 (6?) years talking about repeal/replace and now they are exposed for having no real plan. Nothing. And Trump's news conference quote of "no one knew health care was this complicated..." does not help matters. | |||
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Member |
Thanks for posting that, Chellim! Despite being a Cruz supporter for POTUS, I now realize he is best suited (for now) in his present role. Trump needs a hard-line Conservative leading the way in the Senate, and Ted fits just the bill. I wish that RINO McIdiot would dry up and blow away so that Cruz could step in his place. Never gonna happen, though.....  "If you’re a leader, you lead the way. Not just on the easy ones; you take the tough ones too…” – MAJ Richard D. Winters (1918-2011), E Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil... Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel." - Isaiah 5:20,24 | |||
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| Middle children of history  |
1. Repeal Obamacare outright. Keep the promise. We don't need 60 votes to repeal it. This country survived for 220+ years without Obamacare, and we have only had Obamacare in effect for 6+ years. Yes it will be painful for some people but claiming there will be unmitigated nationwide chaos upon repeal is fear mongering. Let the people on it know that the end of O-care is coming and they better actually save some of their own money to purchase their own coverage through the private market while there is a gap in O-care coverage. 2. Repeal the mandates through reconciliation as described in the Ted Cruz article posted by Chillem. 3. Formulate a new bill that contains the 6 areas of consensus outlined by Cruz that will actually help Americans. If the Dems want to block passage of a new bill that helps fix the healthcare issues we face today then they own that outright. At this point we will have no federally run healthcare plan in place (other than Medicaid/medicare of course) since we successfully kept the promise and repealed Obamacare. Trump should tweet every single day about how the Dems are being obstructionists and preventing passage of a new bill. Make it their problem, not ours. | |||
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Member |
Republicans are far too stupid and cowardly to approach it this way, but I'll offer this approach anyway. Repeal BarryCare completely as promised. Then immediately put forward a bill that covers most of the Repub high points (selling across state lines, HSA's, tax deductions for HC, 26 year olds still on parents policies, no exclusion for pre-existing conditions, etc) and let the DEM's oppose it. If the Repub's would come together (yeah, I know) you'd have 51 Repub votes for it in the Senate along with a few Dem converts trying to save their place at the government trough in 2018. Then the GOP should crucify the Dem's daily for being the one's who prevented millions of people from obtaining healthcare. Let's see how many Dem's want to 'play chicken with the freight train'.Turn the tables on this filth for a change. But that approach would mean the Repub's would have to play to win for a change. I have little faith in that happening given many in the GOPe are every bit as dangerous to this country as the Dem's are. ----------------------------- Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
Dude, what is up with that link? My antivirus went nuts over it. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan "Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle | |||
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quarter MOA visionary |
No, not even the millions like me who have lost their doctor and now paying double deductibles and paying four times the premium! | |||
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