quote:

Originally posted by ChuckFinley:
Reports are coming out that because a mayday was sounded the traffic was in the process of being reduced onto the bridge. I am engaging in conjecture but I would not think that that would have provided time to realize that there were also work crews on the bridge and to get word to them for them to evacuate.

Perhaps once this is repaired they will extend the tug-escort protocols for this harbor (?)

We lived in Baltimore in the 60s and my mother and brother lived there in the late 70s-90s.

My brother has a friend that is Baltimore County PD, who was able to reach the bridge, stopped vehicles and there were emergency crews in the process of warning/evacuating the construction crews when the ship hit.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

quote:

It will take three months to mobilize the people and machines necessary to clear the harbor. The machines are the long pole - finding a large floating crane or two on short notice for a long contract isn't easy. Then another three months to sufficiently clear just the channel to allow large vessel navigation.

Rebuilding is at least five, more like ten, years and will run into billions.

Then there is the inevitable litigation.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quite the pessimist. It will be a priority of the Federal Government and people will be impresssed as it will be done quickly. America has the resources and knowledge. It is not going out for bids.

I fear he’s dead on.

Priority or not, just the design will take a year or two.

The Woodrow Wilson Bridge replacement took 15 years to complete, counting the feeder road projects and that project didn’t have to clear 1200 feet of steel bridge from underwater.

As for the East side of the Beltway (I-695) being a major part of the I-95 corridor, it’s not part of I-95.

You certainly can get around Baltimore that way on the journey North (or South), but I-95 runs through the Fort McHenry Tunnel (not affected) and is much more direct. In fact, depending on where you’re headed, it’s usually a lot faster and more direct to take either the Ft.McHenry Tunnel (I-95) or the Harbor Tunnel (I-895) through Baltimore than it is/was to take the Key Bridge. There’s also the West side of the Beltway.

This IS a huge problem for the industrial interests near the Key Bridge along that side of the beltway, but for most travelers, it’s just a matter of using one of the other three routes around/through Baltimore. They’ll all be a little more congested for a long while, but it shouldn’t be ridiculous.

-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

quote:

It will take three months to mobilize the people and machines necessary to clear the harbor. The machines are the long pole - finding a large floating crane or two on short notice for a long contract isn't easy. Then another three months to sufficiently clear just the channel to allow large vessel navigation.

Rebuilding is at least five, more like ten, years and will run into billions.

Then there is the inevitable litigation.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quite the pessimist. It will be a priority of the Federal Government and people will be impresssed as it will be done quickly. America has the resources and knowledge. It is not going out for bids.

I fear he’s dead on.

Priority or not, just the design will take a year or two.

The Woodrow Wilson Bridge replacement took 15 years to complete, counting the feeder road projects and that project didn’t have to clear 1200 feet of steel bridge from underwater.

a new bridge will certainly take awhile. but I don't see them closing that harbor for 6 months. it is too vital.

When I go through Balt, I take the harbor tunnel. Of course now all other alternative routes will be that much busier.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

Is the proper reaction to immediately shut down the shaft when this happens?
No, you’d immediately put the shaft in neutral and let it slow down, while putting a step tiller on the rudder or use block and tackle to manually control the rudders

Neutral? This is not a Navy vessel, skip. This is a very large container ship powered by a MAN B&W 9S90ME slow speed diesel. It is direct drive, meaning the shaft is directly coupled to the engine with no reduction gear. The engine has an operating speed of somewhere around 85 RPM. If the engine is turning, the shaft and prop is turning.

quote:

Can the shaft be disengaged/reengaged without shutting down the engine (which I assume would take a long time to restart)?

yes the shaft can be placed in neutral with the engine still running. But they had lost power, so the shaft was already free wheeling

Again, this is not the case with this particular vessel. It's not even the case on some medium speed diesel vessels like the one I work on. On my vessel, the main engines are also direct drive, and the Propeller speed is reduced via a reduction gear. We utilize though a Controllable Pitch Propeller, so we can move the blades to a zero pitch position and produce almost no thrust while the engines are still running. But if we don't want the shaft and prop turning, we must shut down the main engines.

On a slow speed diesel like the Dali, it is a fixed blade propeller. The engine must be stopped and restarted numerous times during maneuvering, as the prop will always produce thrust with the engine running. These engines are also capable of running in reverse for astern propulsion.

Different angle view, looks like the ship turns 90 degrees and hits the support.

https://twitter.com/Brick_Suit.../1772552045951852756

Every Goddamned time. The Northeastern US seems particularly bad in this respect. What is it with these people?

"I'd like to thank the Academy."

FACTS. INFORMATION. DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND??

https://twitter.com/JackPosobi.../1772632893669400791

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
Ship cited for previous propulsion deficiency before Francis Scott Key Bridge crash, crashed in 2016

https://nypost.com/2024/03/26/...ort-authorities-say/

The container ship that apparently lost power and then smashed into Baltimore’s Francis Scott Key Bridge was cited last year for a “deficiency” with its propulsion.

The M/V Dali also crashed while leaving the Port of Antwerp in 2016.

Across 27 inspections conducted since the Dali was built in 2015, two “deficiencies” were flagged, according to records from the Electronic Quality Shipping Information System (Equasis) viewed by CNN.

Chilean authorities gave the Dali a “deficiency” for “propulsion and auxiliary machinery — gauges, thermometers, etc,” in June 2023, according to Equasis records.

More at link

If you were to pull up the inspection records of any random ship, you'd almost certainly find any number of noted observations and deficiencies cited. It's what these inspectors are paid to do. That article alone tells me absolutely nothing.

I'll tell you all what my suspicions of this accident arose from, but of course I'm just speculating. In the last few years, IMO and other regulating bodies around the world have been implementing more and more onerous fuel standards on shippers to a point that it is not just a cost consideration, but also an operational one. These ultra low sulfur fuels--particularly for heavy fuel oil like the Dali container ship would be burning--have been causing all kinds of hell throughout the industry. This would not be the first large ship recently to lose propulsion or go black in a navigational channel (or outside it) due to low sulfur fuel causing engine parts to seize up. The trend for these engine failures is increasing as ship managers and engineers try to accommodate for these new fuel standards.

Now of course I don't know what caused this accident as of now, but I would not be surprised in the least if the main culprit turned out to be fuel. And I know precisely who I would blame for that, and it's not the Pilots nor the mates nor the ship engineers...

That was painful and pathetic at the same time.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Every Goddamned time. The Northeastern US seems particularly bad in this respect. What is it with these people?

"I'd like to thank the Academy."

FACTS. INFORMATION. DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND??

https://twitter.com/JackPosobi.../1772632893669400791

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Like many other in the area I've been over this bridge before although I mostly use the Fort McHenry Tunnel. The bridge is mostly for people going to parts East of Baltimore like Sparrows Point. Looks of industry that bridge connects to. Definitely other ways to get there but that will certainly increase travel times. It will also effect the two tunnels and west side of 695 as people look for alternatives. This bridge doesn't directly effect people traveling up and down 95 or into Baltimore but will put more traffic on their routes. I was meeting a guy in Ellicott city this morning that was coming around the west side of 695. He called me to say he was running a little late because of traffic.

Major impact on the port until they can get it cleared enough to open the waterway. After that the impact from rebuilding as ships will again be navigation the water way.

I've heard they where reducing or had stopped traffic on the bridge after the mayday call. The missing are mostly if not all the workers that where on the bridge. If the video of the collapse you can see the flashing lights of the work crew. It was cold last night 30's for air temp. Not sure what water temp is in that area this time of year. Thoughts and prayers for those who ended up in the water.

This shameless piece of fecal matter...

https://twitter.com/TPostMille.../1772688210247794709

The latest report I've seen is that six workers are still missing. Praying for their families.

quote:

Originally posted by YellowJacket:

a new bridge will certainly take awhile. but I don't see them closing that harbor for 6 months. it is too vital.

Exactly. They'll need to leave things in place while the NTSB, FBI, and possibly others do their investigation but they'll clear a navigation channel in a matter of a couple of weeks to a month to reopen the port. Clearing the rest of the debris will likely take months.

Replacing the bridge is a much longer term process since the superstructure is gone and the primary support pier impacted by the ship has been damaged and possibly even shifted. Even if the pier can be repaired and saved, they'll need to design a new superstructure, so they won't be able to pull an Atlanta/I-85 miracle and replace the superstructure in a matter of a few months and open back up for traffic.

Question for you guys who work on these big ships. Any number of failures onboard could have been the culprit in this event. Is there any way those failures could have been caused remotely?

The new Tappan Zee Bridge (not using Cuomo) took 6 years to complete. I believe the span is shorter in Baltimore. If the bridge is fast tracked it could be built faster than we might think. We shall see. Dont get me wrong 6 years is still a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
Question for you guys who work on these big ships. Any number of failures onboard could have been the culprit in this event. Is there any way those failures could have been caused remotely?

Channeling our inner Alex Jones are we?

https://twitter.com/RealAlexJo.../1772612314090320074

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
Question for you guys who work on these big ships. Any number of failures onboard could have been the culprit in this event. Is there any way those failures could have been caused remotely?

It's not inconceivable. Though that's not the direction I'm leaning towards.

^^^ Right. I'm leaning toward incompetence, not sabotage/terrorism.

quote:

My brother has a friend that is Baltimore County PD, who was able to reach the bridge, stopped vehicles and there were emergency crews in the process of warning/evacuating the construction crews when the ship hit.

Well that's good news, at least. I'm impressed that they were able to communicate and respond so quickly, and it undoubtedly saved some lives.

quote:

On a slow speed diesel like the Dali, it is a fixed blade propeller. The engine must be stopped and restarted numerous times during maneuvering, as the prop will always produce thrust with the engine running. These engines are also capable of running in reverse for astern propulsion.

Is that stopping and starting of the engine something that takes a while, or is it pretty immediate? I'm just wondering if it's kind of a last-resort type of thing that the crew may have wanted to try to avoid unless absolutely necessary, or if it's more of a routine function.

Sorry for all the questions, I've just always been fascinated by the engineering that goes into big ships and how they're operated.

Maybe when they rebuild the bridge they can implement a different design that eliminates the need for pier supports and reduces the chances of this happening again.