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6 year old Oregan boy contracts tetanus, almost dies, spends 47 days in ICU, parents still refuse vaccine Login/Join 
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by kz1000:
Child abuse.


That’s it, and should be treated as such.




6.4/93.6

“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”
— Plato
 
Posts: 47366 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
Most of the anti-vaxxers that I have encountered haven't had a science class since high school and barely got by then. They might have college degrees but they aren't in the sciences.

I have an advanced degree in science (engineering actually) and I have been accused of being an "anti-vaxxer" for pointing out that it is not a simple as the "pro-vaxxers" would like it to be.

Vaccines definitely have a real risk associated with them also. We could get into the details of Guillen-Barre-syndrome, manufacturing errors, infections, etc, etc, etc, etc, but it would side-track the issue. I think the main point is simply this: If a person has any "human rights" at all, then certainly they have the right to refuse to be injected with a foreign substance against their will.
Maybe it is a "stupid decision"; but they have a right to make that decision. Yes, even in that case of children. Parents make stupid decisions for children all the time.
The danger of catching a rare disease is. IMO, far lower than the danger of having a government presume to be able to tell citizens what they MUST be injected with.

I was one of the people who didn't go get a swine flu vaccination in 1976. Pro-vaxxers can go read the wikipedia page about that debacle.
I do, however, get vaccines for anything that I deem a reasonable risk. The point is that I get to decide, even if it is stupid.


"Crom is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, 'What is the riddle of steel?' If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me."
 
Posts: 6641 | Registered: September 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Eye Doc
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^^^^^^ I wonder why the danger of contracting one of these rare diseases is low. Hmmm...that's a real conundrum.
 
Posts: 2927 | Location: (Occupied) Northern Minnesota | Registered: June 24, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I hate that our state mandates vaccinations. Generally, I believe it should be an individual's choice. The efficacy and risk/benefit of a flu shot, for example, could be debated ad nauseam.

But I can't understand at all what would lead an individual to deny receiving a tetanus vaccination.




"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
"A government is just a body of people, usually, notably, ungoverned." Shepherd Book
 
Posts: 12683 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drill Here, Drill Now
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Clostridium tetani, the bacteria that causes tetanus, is encountered globally in every day life (not just metal but soil, dust and animal waste) but tetanus is a rare disease because of vaccinations. Other than people who are allergic to it (e.g. my Grandfather), it's foolish not to be vaccinated for it.

My Grandfather once his doctor told him he couldn't have another tetanus shot made the wise decision to stop restoring old motorcycles as he always had little knicks on his hands from metal.



Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
 
Posts: 23102 | Location: Northern Suburbs of Houston | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Crom:
quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
Most of the anti-vaxxers that I have encountered haven't had a science class since high school and barely got by then. They might have college degrees but they aren't in the sciences.

I have an advanced degree in science (engineering actually) and I have been accused of being an "anti-vaxxer" for pointing out that it is not a simple as the "pro-vaxxers" would like it to be.

Vaccines definitely have a real risk associated with them also. We could get into the details of Guillen-Barre-syndrome, manufacturing errors, infections, etc, etc, etc, etc, but it would side-track the issue. I think the main point is simply this: If a person has any "human rights" at all, then certainly they have the right to refuse to be injected with a foreign substance against their will.
Maybe it is a "stupid decision"; but they have a right to make that decision. Yes, even in that case of children. Parents make stupid decisions for children all the time.
The danger of catching a rare disease is. IMO, far lower than the danger of having a government presume to be able to tell citizens what they MUST be injected with.

I was one of the people who didn't go get a swine flu vaccination in 1976. Pro-vaxxers can go read the wikipedia page about that debacle.
I do, however, get vaccines for anything that I deem a reasonable risk. The point is that I get to decide, even if it is stupid.

Great point, I’m glad someone else thinks like me. Unlike what others may think, it doesn’t take a degree in science to know I don’t blindly follow what the govt wants. I never get the flu vaccine and that’s my choice. I’ve also never had the flu and the majority of my friends have. I’ve decided it’s not necessary for me. I’m glad we don’t yet live in a society where others can decide whether I need a vaccine or not. Now I’m also not agreeing with this family but if a woman can legally choose to kill her child prior to birth I have no problems with families deciding whether they want to get vaccinated.
 
Posts: 4077 | Location: Friendswood Texas | Registered: August 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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I originally drafted this post for the thread about measles vaccinations, but even though tetanus isn’t a communicable disease and therefore my comments don’t really apply to the original topic, we’re now starting to discuss vaccinations in general, so here it goes:
---

Like it or not, when we live in societies with others, sometimes those others are going to tell us what to do. Many of those rules and laws range from the ridiculous to the unjust, but other than defending the group against attack, the oldest and most common have always related to public health. The Hammurabi code addresses public health as do the Qur’an and the various versions of the Bible. Many of the taboos and superstitious beliefs of preliterate groups all over the world have related to health issues. And the reason public health has always been a matter of such concern? Because it’s public.

Many health issues are private in that they affect only the individual, but countless others affect the entire community. That includes such things as polluting water supplies with personal and manufacturing waste, and especially all communicable diseases. The latter in particular were identified back to antiquity as something that needed to be controlled by the strictest, and harshest measures—and for good reason. Only recently in human history were the causes of communicable diseases discovered, but long ago people knew that they could spread from one person to another, and they did their best to prevent their spread.

Going back only 100 years the town down the road from where I live now and where my father’s family was living established a strict quarantine in an attempt to keep out the so-called “Spanish” influenza. When the prohibition against people coming into town was broken by a former resident who snuck in one night, the flu spread quickly and many people died. My father who was a young child at the time and his family escaped, but there’s no reason they might not have. The town of Telluride, Colorado, reportedly enforced its quarantine with armed guards at the roads entering the community. Breaking a quarantine can be tantamount to murder, and murder is recognized as a serious offense by virtually all human societies.

Living in communities imposes certain obligations and restrictions on all of us. If there is one such obligation that has been justified by every society throughout history, it is the obligation to not make others sick through our own irresponsible behavior.

The great irony of life today in rich countries like ours is that few people understand and appreciate what a deadly danger communicable diseases were to communities throughout history. The reason it’s no longer the threat it once was is of course because of things like modern sanitation, antipollution laws and, yes, mandatory public health requirements such as vaccinations.




6.4/93.6

“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”
— Plato
 
Posts: 47366 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drill Here, Drill Now
Picture of tatortodd
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mrvmax:
quote:
Originally posted by Crom:
quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
Most of the anti-vaxxers that I have encountered haven't had a science class since high school and barely got by then. They might have college degrees but they aren't in the sciences.

I have an advanced degree in science (engineering actually) and I have been accused of being an "anti-vaxxer" for pointing out that it is not a simple as the "pro-vaxxers" would like it to be.

Vaccines definitely have a real risk associated with them also. We could get into the details of Guillen-Barre-syndrome, manufacturing errors, infections, etc, etc, etc, etc, but it would side-track the issue. I think the main point is simply this: If a person has any "human rights" at all, then certainly they have the right to refuse to be injected with a foreign substance against their will.
Maybe it is a "stupid decision"; but they have a right to make that decision. Yes, even in that case of children. Parents make stupid decisions for children all the time.
The danger of catching a rare disease is. IMO, far lower than the danger of having a government presume to be able to tell citizens what they MUST be injected with.

I was one of the people who didn't go get a swine flu vaccination in 1976. Pro-vaxxers can go read the wikipedia page about that debacle.
I do, however, get vaccines for anything that I deem a reasonable risk. The point is that I get to decide, even if it is stupid.

Great point, I’m glad someone else thinks like me. Unlike what others may think, it doesn’t take a degree in science to know I don’t blindly follow what the govt wants. I never get the flu vaccine and that’s my choice. I’ve also never had the flu and the majority of my friends have. I’ve decided it’s not necessary for me. I’m glad we don’t yet live in a society where others can decide whether I need a vaccine or not. Now I’m also not agreeing with this family but if a woman can legally choose to kill her child prior to birth I have no problems with families deciding whether they want to get vaccinated.
Roll Eyes For Pete's sake, my post was about anti-vaxxers who refuse ALL vaccines not people who choose based on risk. Talk about taking something out of context and choosing the most ludicrous anti-vaxxer definition possible.

I'm going to Canada next month and I'm not getting a yellow fever shot or taking anti-malarials because there is no risk. However, if I were going to Sub-Saharan Africa I would be getting a yellow fever shot and taking anti-malarials as both are prevalent.

More importantly, tetanus is the topic of this thread and the virus is prevalaent in every part of the globe and nearly everyone is exposed in their every day lives. Only someone who is allergic or someone who is bad at risk management doesn't get tetanus vaccinations.



Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
 
Posts: 23102 | Location: Northern Suburbs of Houston | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tetnus is something that is basically up to the parents and child. The reason is that it isn't communicable.

I work on a ranch in the summer and just got my tetanus booster last year.

Measles such as the outbreak that is currently taking place in Oregon and WA. is a perfect illustration of what having non vaccinated children in a school environment can do.

If you elect not to vaccinate your child, you should be forced to homeschool him/her.


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Posts: 559 | Location: Idaho Panhandle | Registered: May 26, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mrvmax:
if a woman can legally choose to kill her child prior to birth I have no problems with families deciding whether they want to get vaccinated.


You can't catch an abortion from someone else. These two things are not at all the same.

When Measles is making a come back, and kids are being hospitalized for tetanus, this anti-vax nonsense has gone too far. By all means look into what goes into a vaccine and its potential risks, but then consider the disease being vaccinated for, and your family and community. When a deadly disease or infection is almost wiped out such that it's virtually unknown, but peoples "choice" causes it to come back, that is foolishness not "personal freedom."

It's important to look at the "studies" that have fueled this anti-vax craze. How many have not been discredited, along with their authors? The MMR vaccine, which is where all this began is safe and effective and doesn't cause autism...

Nothing is without risk, and in the case of vaccines, you can clearly gauge the risk of what not vaccinating a child can do. Vaccination, is not the riskier choice. People who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons absolutely exist, everyone else should be getting vaccinated.


Arc.
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Posts: 27000 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't have kids but I thought that to be in a public school, kids must be vaccinated?
 
Posts: 1393 | Location: County 18, OH | Registered: April 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If it's the right of the parents to choose not to have their child vaccinated.....I'm guessing they won't mind footing the hospital bill , when their child gets tetanus.

All of these folks who are so anti-government, rarely seem to mind getting federal dollars when it is convenient..... Explain that principle for me..
 
Posts: 1264 | Location: Idaho | Registered: October 21, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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There was a recent article in The Wall Street Journal about mandatory vaccination rules for children in public (there’s that word again) schools. As I understand the article, all states require such vaccinations, but exceptions are permitted.

California, Mississippi, and West Virginia allow exceptions to the rules only for valid medical reasons.

AK, AL, CT, DC, DE, FL, GA, HI, IA, IL, IN, KS, KY, MA, MD, MO, MT, NC, NE, NH, NJ, NM, NV, NY, RI, SC, SD, TN, VA, VT, and WY allow exceptions only for medical and religious reasons.

AR, AZ, CO, ID, LA, ME, MI, MN, ND, OH, OK, OR, PA, TX, UT, WA, and WI permit exceptions for medical, religious, and “personal belief” reasons.




6.4/93.6

“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”
— Plato
 
Posts: 47366 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm pretty much sure all of the anti-vaxers out there have never had to help load an infant with whooping cough into an incubator for a helicopter flight to Children's Hospital.

I'm very libertarian in my philosophies but vaccines is where I draw the line. I usually don't care what individuals do as long as it doesn't affect me. The problem with anti-vaxers is that they effect everyone else by compromising herd immunity. California has had a whooping cough epidemic. With the outbreak the disease has now mutated into some forms which are not affected by traditional vaccines.

We've been concerned with the recent measles outbreak in Washington. Alaska is only one flight away from Seattle and a high percentage of the commercial flights to Anchorage come from Seattle. All it takes is for one person to get on a 15' diameter aluminum tube with 150 other people to start an outbreak.




My daughter can deflate your daughter's soccer ball.
 
Posts: 11749 | Location: Eagle River, AK | Registered: September 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jack of All Trades,
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quote:
Originally posted by Phelen_Kell:
I don't have kids but I thought that to be in a public school, kids must be vaccinated?

Sigfreund already covered it.

Arizona allows exemption for, "Philosophical Reasons". In nursing school we dd a public health project in Sedona, Arizona. For those not familiar with Sedona, it's population is a lot of burned out hippies and new agers that believe in peace, love and the healing powers of the vortexes. One school district there had 58% of their students not vaccinated. It was not appreciated when I asked, "When do we start handing out blankets?"




My daughter can deflate your daughter's soccer ball.
 
Posts: 11749 | Location: Eagle River, AK | Registered: September 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have no problem with people deciding not to vaccinate, as long as they stay away from the rest of the population (particularly those who cannot be immunized due to medical reasons, like chemotherapy, allergies, pregnancy, age). If they choose not to vaccinate, they should not be a part of the herd that vaccination protects. Libertarians should agree with me, with reights come responsibilities. So the patents should pay the medical bills out of pocket as well, insurance is another herd product.
 
Posts: 2155 | Location: NC | Registered: January 01, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
If you see me running
try to keep up
Picture of mrvmax
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
quote:
Originally posted by mrvmax:
quote:
Originally posted by Crom:
quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
Most of the anti-vaxxers that I have encountered haven't had a science class since high school and barely got by then. They might have college degrees but they aren't in the sciences.

I have an advanced degree in science (engineering actually) and I have been accused of being an "anti-vaxxer" for pointing out that it is not a simple as the "pro-vaxxers" would like it to be.

Vaccines definitely have a real risk associated with them also. We could get into the details of Guillen-Barre-syndrome, manufacturing errors, infections, etc, etc, etc, etc, but it would side-track the issue. I think the main point is simply this: If a person has any "human rights" at all, then certainly they have the right to refuse to be injected with a foreign substance against their will.
Maybe it is a "stupid decision"; but they have a right to make that decision. Yes, even in that case of children. Parents make stupid decisions for children all the time.
The danger of catching a rare disease is. IMO, far lower than the danger of having a government presume to be able to tell citizens what they MUST be injected with.

I was one of the people who didn't go get a swine flu vaccination in 1976. Pro-vaxxers can go read the wikipedia page about that debacle.
I do, however, get vaccines for anything that I deem a reasonable risk. The point is that I get to decide, even if it is stupid.

Great point, I’m glad someone else thinks like me. Unlike what others may think, it doesn’t take a degree in science to know I don’t blindly follow what the govt wants. I never get the flu vaccine and that’s my choice. I’ve also never had the flu and the majority of my friends have. I’ve decided it’s not necessary for me. I’m glad we don’t yet live in a society where others can decide whether I need a vaccine or not. Now I’m also not agreeing with this family but if a woman can legally choose to kill her child prior to birth I have no problems with families deciding whether they want to get vaccinated.
Roll Eyes For Pete's sake, my post was about anti-vaxxers who refuse ALL vaccines not people who choose based on risk. Talk about taking something out of context and choosing the most ludicrous anti-vaxxer definition possible.

I'm going to Canada next month and I'm not getting a yellow fever shot or taking anti-malarials because there is no risk. However, if I were going to Sub-Saharan Africa I would be getting a yellow fever shot and taking anti-malarials as both are prevalent.

More importantly, tetanus is the topic of this thread and the virus is prevalaent in every part of the globe and nearly everyone is exposed in their every day lives. Only someone who is allergic or someone who is bad at risk management doesn't get tetanus vaccinations.

Some posts were about forcing people to do something they choose not to do. It’s not your choice to decide who gets tetanus shots. The government cannot properly control all the regulations they currently have to protect children. Literally millions of children are killed every year worldwide and a million in the US legally yet people are bent out of shape over this family. Pretty hypocritical. That’s my point and it’s not taking this discussion out of context since it boils down to whether govt should make them do it or not. I don’t agree with their choice but I’m not going to say the govt is the solution here. Our government is not the solution to our problems.
 
Posts: 4077 | Location: Friendswood Texas | Registered: August 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of barndg00
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mrvmax:
quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
quote:
Originally posted by mrvmax:
quote:
Originally posted by Crom:
quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
Most of the anti-vaxxers that I have encountered haven't had a science class since high school and barely got by then. They might have college degrees but they aren't in the sciences.

I have an advanced degree in science (engineering actually) and I have been accused of being an "anti-vaxxer" for pointing out that it is not a simple as the "pro-vaxxers" would like it to be.

Vaccines definitely have a real risk associated with them also. We could get into the details of Guillen-Barre-syndrome, manufacturing errors, infections, etc, etc, etc, etc, but it would side-track the issue. I think the main point is simply this: If a person has any "human rights" at all, then certainly they have the right to refuse to be injected with a foreign substance against their will.
Maybe it is a "stupid decision"; but they have a right to make that decision. Yes, even in that case of children. Parents make stupid decisions for children all the time.
The danger of catching a rare disease is. IMO, far lower than the danger of having a government presume to be able to tell citizens what they MUST be injected with.

I was one of the people who didn't go get a swine flu vaccination in 1976. Pro-vaxxers can go read the wikipedia page about that debacle.
I do, however, get vaccines for anything that I deem a reasonable risk. The point is that I get to decide, even if it is stupid.

Great point, I’m glad someone else thinks like me. Unlike what others may think, it doesn’t take a degree in science to know I don’t blindly follow what the govt wants. I never get the flu vaccine and that’s my choice. I’ve also never had the flu and the majority of my friends have. I’ve decided it’s not necessary for me. I’m glad we don’t yet live in a society where others can decide whether I need a vaccine or not. Now I’m also not agreeing with this family but if a woman can legally choose to kill her child prior to birth I have no problems with families deciding whether they want to get vaccinated.
Roll Eyes For Pete's sake, my post was about anti-vaxxers who refuse ALL vaccines not people who choose based on risk. Talk about taking something out of context and choosing the most ludicrous anti-vaxxer definition possible.

I'm going to Canada next month and I'm not getting a yellow fever shot or taking anti-malarials because there is no risk. However, if I were going to Sub-Saharan Africa I would be getting a yellow fever shot and taking anti-malarials as both are prevalent.

More importantly, tetanus is the topic of this thread and the virus is prevalaent in every part of the globe and nearly everyone is exposed in their every day lives. Only someone who is allergic or someone who is bad at risk management doesn't get tetanus vaccinations.

Some posts were about forcing people to do something they choose not to do. It’s not your choice to decide who gets tetanus shots. The government cannot properly control all the regulations they currently have to protect children. Literally millions of children are killed every year worldwide and a million in the US legally yet people are bent out of shape over this family. Pretty hypocritical. That’s my point and it’s not taking this discussion out of context since it boils down to whether govt should make them do it or not. I don’t agree with their choice but I’m not going to say the govt is the solution here. Our government is not the solution to our problems.


Spoken like someone who has forgotten polio, and haemophyllis meningitis, and mumps, etc
 
Posts: 2155 | Location: NC | Registered: January 01, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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https://aapsonline.org/measles...al-vaccine-mandates/

These docs don’t think vaccines should be govt mandated. I’d have to agree with them. In the end I think the two biggest things to take away from this are that vaccines are neither 100% effective and 100% safe. And vaccines are neither the end all be all in disease prevention.


God, Guns, and Guts made this country....let's keep all three
 
Posts: 495 | Location: TX | Registered: March 09, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by roadkill:
In the end I think the two biggest things to take away from this are that vaccines are neither 100% effective and 100% safe.


Well, what is...?


~Alan

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Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan

"Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle
 
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