quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
To be clear on my POV.

I have no ill will towards Gen. Mattis.

He has served honorably and well. Anyone who believes that a good and effective military leader is neutral and unbiased has never served under one.

The best military leaders are often "hard bent" and that is the point that makes them most effective.

Most effective military leaders are many times the least effective in non-military leadership positions.

Gen. Mattis did not "McCain" himself.
He resigned in a dignified manner. Agree or disagree with his boss, he knows as a professional the correct response.

This is only a big deal, if people insist on it being a big deal.

And for two years, when he stepped up to the plate, the other team moved the fielders way back.

And speaking of baseball. What Yogi Berra said.

I am heeding the wisdom of the Monkey on this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:...
Seems like a garden variety, thinly veiled, passive aggressive "fuck you".

I think it is a "mirror" statement.
It reflects the thought of the person who reads it.

If is is as I see it, face value, then it is most dignified.

If it is as you see it, he needed to be kicked to the curb for being a Nancy.

Its interesting to me to hear the media and these generals talk about Trump leaving the Kurds to be massacred and I do feel for the Kurds. It's even more interesting that the media and Mattis admits the people who will be involved in the massacre will be our other so called NATO Ally the Turks. Sorry but in a neighborhood this shitty I think Trump is right to leave the area all together and that includes getting our troops and nukes out of Turkey. With friends like Turkey and Erdogan we don't need any new enemies.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, monkey.

Every statement by anyone, ever, is subject to the interpretation of the audience, each of whom will have their own bias, and his resignation letter is no different in this regard.

Every statement ever uttered is a "mirror statement".

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
I'm not sure what you're getting at, monkey.

Every statement by anyone, ever, is subject to the interpretation of the audience, each of whom will have their own bias, and his resignation letter is no different in this regard.

Every statement ever uttered is a "mirror statement".

Either the letter says:

"I am leaving because DJT deserves someone who supports his policies".

Or it says: "Fuck DJT, he's and asshole and I hoe he gets the dick he deserves that will kiss his ass."

And the "mirror" part, is how one takes it, when they do not know which it is.

I prefer to "see" the former, "my reflection, my belief", rather than the latter, "your POV".

And if I had a dollar for every time I have been wrong, I would be a rich man. If I had a dollar for every time I was right, I would be a richer man.

I think Mattis did the right and honorable thing in resigning if he does not feel he can support the President's decisions.

Our action in Syria was an extension of our actions in Iraq: The defeat of ISIS. (Defeat, not destruction.) Not to participate in a civil war, or establish an independent Kurdistan. There are still U.S. assets in Iraq if any strategic "sniping" needs to take place.

I suspect that the commander in Afghanistan is more of a hard-eyed realist than his predecessors and has communicated his view of ground truth to the CIC. The Taliban was a creation of Pakistan's intelligence service, and as long as that support continues, the Taliban will remain.

Many of the senior leaders who push a more agile, lethal military are the same ones in favor of continued involvement in overseas actions that have not turned-out the way we hoped and have cost more lives and dollars than the results justified. Some of them have also lined their pockets.

quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:
Its interesting to me to hear the media and these generals talk about Trump leaving the Kurds to be massacred and I do feel for the Kurds. It's even more interesting that the media and Mattis admits the people who will be involved in the massacre will be our other so called NATO Ally the Turks. Sorry but in a neighborhood this shitty I think Trump is right to leave the area all together and that includes getting our troops and nukes out of Turkey. With friends like Turkey and Erdogan we don't need any new enemies.

You're pretty much on target. One has to read outside the US news reports to see what is really happening in Syria. The Kurds have been at the forefront in fighting ISIS, with U.S. support including embedded advisors and a lot of them.

The Turks have stated to attack the Kurds in there rear. Kurds have managed to take out Turkish Amour - German Leopard II 2A4. Several months ago the Turks whined to the German Government that Turkey needs the new 2A7 tanks. Of course the Germans voiced their extreme displeasure at Turkey for using German military hardware against the Kurds.

Never mind the Saudi involvement in all too this.

It's a cesspool, especially with the very strong chance of U.S. troops being in harm's way from Turkish forces attacking Kurds fighting ISIS with U.S. forces in direct support.

Turkey is moving toward a civil war between the Secularist, as modern day Turkey was created by Ataturk, and Erdogan who definitely wants to make Turkey an Islamic Republic.

Unless Trump is willing to tell Erdogan to knock his attacks on the Kurds off, he might as well pull out.

I read before the Mattis resignation, that Turkey has moved significant offensive force capability near it's border with Northern Syria. So, they are ready for some sort of offensive. Erdogan needs to rally folks around the flag with his internal civil problems, and attacking the Kurds seems a very convienent opportunity.

We can't fix everything.

At some point the people in these countries need to rise up and fix themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:...
Seems like a garden variety, thinly veiled, passive aggressive "fuck you".

I think it is a "mirror" statement.
It reflects the thought of the person who reads it.

If is is as I see it, face value, then it is most dignified.

If it is as you see it, he needed to be kicked to the curb for being a Nancy.

My read was that General Mattis was very clear that he did not agree with President Trump on some issues that he felt strongly about. Would it perhaps have been nicer to say less about that and just move on, sure. On the other hand, if one values someone for saying what they think, how upset can you be when they say what they think? At least he was polite and professional about it.

I hope Russia flattens Turkey if they launch a large attack.

Was that uncalled for. Trump essentially cut his balls off by deciding to pull out of Syria without even consulting him (it appears.)

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Gen. Mattis did not "McCain" himself.
He resigned in a dignified manner.

Yes, he did.

Was it (notably dignified)?

Seems like a garden variety, thinly veiled, passive aggressive "fuck you".

Given the awful and often fictional coverage of Trump’s presidency he did Trump a favor by explaining his reason for leaving. People will read into it what they want but I think it was a good move for him to explain the reason for his departure.

Military officers, when ordered to do something that don’t agree with, have only two options: say “Yes sir”, salute smartly, and carry out the order; or tender their resignation.

Mattis has been military his entire adult life, and it is ingrained in him. He chose the way he learned in the military.

You can take the wording of the letter as you see fit. End-of-story.

I do not think we should stand for it if Turkey decides to wipe out the Kurds. I also do not think our ground troops will or should be there on the ground. What that means, I am not sure, but the opportunity for a supreme quagmire exists if we are not careful.

We still have many options should something untoward happen. More, really, if our ground troops are not there directly in harms way.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Gen. Mattis did not "McCain" himself.
He resigned in a dignified manner.

Yes, he did.

Was it (notably dignified)?

Seems like a garden variety, thinly veiled, passive aggressive "fuck you".

Was that uncalled for. Trump essentially cut his balls off by deciding to pull out of Syria without even consulting him (it appears.)

From the Pros & Cons thread:

"Trump promised to bring the 2,000 U.S. Special Forces home from Syria in April. When his announcement sparked opposition from the Pentagon and from key allies, Trump said that he would give the Pentagon six months to complete its mission to defeat so-called “Islamic State” (ISIS) forces in Syria."

General Mattis was well aware months ahead of time what the President wanted and his intentions.

Kurds or Armenians. What's the difference. A little genocide and mass murder here or there, now and then. It's not like the Turks do this more than once a century or so. No biggie.

Tremendous hooting on Face the Nation this morning regarding Mattis' departure. I can't help but think that confirms his decision to leave, and Trump's decision to move on.

https://www.breitbart.com/poli...im-mattis-out-early/

President Donald Trump asked General Jim Mattis to leave his position as Secretary of Defense early, after his decision to resign.
“I am pleased to announce that our very talented Deputy Secretary of Defense, Patrick Shanahan, will assume the title of Acting Secretary of Defense starting January 1, 2019,” Trump wrote on Twitter.

Mattis resigned last week in protest at the president’s decision to withdraw troops from Syria. He planned to stay on until February to ensure a smooth transition.

Pundits are saying Trump is forcing Mattis out early because President Trump is fed up with all the positive news coverage Mattis is suddenly getting.

Remember when all these Pundits and left wing hacks were apoplectic about all the military men that the President was surrounding himself with? Now that he's changing course and getting different people, it's suddenly the precursor to Armageddon. Hacks!

They are not pundits, they are punidiots.