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| Member |
All life is precious. It's just that some are way way way less precious than others.  *************************** Knowing more by accident than on purpose. | |||
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A Grateful American |
Yes. And it is my hope that all the outrage is focused on this truth. "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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Bad dog! |
Mr. Monkey, I understand your point, and as always it is insightful and important. But I would say that some of the outrage has to be directed at this inept, inexcusable-- and deadly-- police operation. The guy who called in that "swatting" is the lowest of the low. I believe that there is a special place for those like him in Hell. But the police have their own standards to maintain, their own responsibilities. They are often dealing with the lowest of the low. And they need to be able to do that without killing an innocent man in the circumstances we see in that video. I see no good reason for that shot. I looked hard to find one. That shot should not have been fired. I think some outrage for that is inevitable and right. ______________________________________________________ "You get much farther with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone." | |||
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| Member |
This is not going down well in Wichita (no surprise). Read the comments. Link | |||
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| Too soon old, too late smart |
Can anyone think of anything that might slow or hamper someone’s compliance in such a situation? Extreme fatigue or just waking from a deep sleep? The use of even legal drugs? Ambiene would sure do it for me. How about a snootful of alcohol? What about the inability to understand English? | |||
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| Member |
I'm going to disagree, to a degree, with your defense of the policeman that made the killing shot. Because they are authorized by the governing bodies (local, state, federal) to enforce the law and use deadly force, and undergo the training to perform those duties, the police have a higher level of duty to meet than the average citizen afraid for his life. Danger is part and parcel of being a police officer. The training and, most important of all, the authority given to perform that job demand a greater amount of care and accountability in the use of deadly force, in order to avoid incidents like this one. Reading your post on p.7, where you stated, "And I am about as fucking sick and tired as anyone can be about people getting their little girl panties in a wad over cops wanting to go home." - well, what about your average citizen who has done nothing to warrant being shot by a police officer? Who has the higher duty to perform? Who has the greater right to not be shot and killed? Also, your statement - "We have a problem because bad people do bad shit, and our society makes excuses for them, while excoriating those on the edge that are there because "We the People...." handed off the protection and defense of our lives and our living spaces to other agencies.". So bad people do bad things and society has decided for centuries to have, in some form or fashion, a force granted authority by the collective to keep and maintain law and order. That doesn't mean we as a collective have given up all our liberties, or our lives, to that agreed upon force. Nor does it mean we surrender any opposing thought to mistakes or egregious usurping of limits by that force. And a last statement of yours I take issue with is - "And then we want to second guess and dissect and analyze in the comfort of non-stressful and all-the-time-in-the-world environments and then summarily judge and convict them.". Non-stressful environments is where analysis is, and should be, done. As far as condeming others for summarily judging and convicting in this case, well, have you never cast that stone? From time to time we all have, and we all do. For most people it's a way to vent and, in some cases, the facts and evidence known support the opinions of summary judgement and conviction. You want to place blame on the spoof caller for this shooting and I agree, in part. The police are also to blame because we (society) have provided them the authority and means to perform with a higher degree of responsibility to help ensure our (society's) safety. The video provided does not convince me that the higher level of responsibility given to, and required of, our police forces was present in this case. Like you I'm very interested to hear what the investigation into this shooting brings to light beyond what we already know and have seen. Unlike you, though, I believe the police carry a significant amount of blame in this tragedy. | |||
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| No double standards |
Makes a lot of sense. I had a conversation today with my son-in-law on this matter (litigation atty, former DA), also the Steinle tragic shooting/killing in San Francisco by an illegal, and the police shooting some months ago in Minneapolis area. He shared some of his experiences as a prosecutor, shared both sides of the issue, then ended with a stmt he has made before, "justice is a process, not necessarily an end result". "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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Political Cynic |
there is a local story running that intimates that there are some serious legal issues surrounding this event I think that misses the real point I think there are some ethical issues that need to be addressed first once those are dealt with, the legal issues may either solve themselves or disappear in part... No federal swatting laws exist, but a number of federal charges could be filed, such as obstruction of justice, attempted obstruction and wire fraud. Wire fraud, Callan said, is "a catchall statute for these new crimes that haven't been anticipated." State authorities could file a homicide charge, he said. "It might be a reckless homicide because when you do something like this to set up a raid by a SWAT team on an innocent family, you're putting people's lives in danger," he said. The 911 call One problem in prosecuting swatting cases is that many are perpetrated by juveniles as a prank or joke, and it's difficult to prove they had an intent to cause harm. In 2013, a 12-year-old boy made swatting calls to actor Ashton Kutcher's home, as well as musician Justin Bieber's residence. Because the suspect was a juvenile, his punishment is not known. The 911 tape in the Wichita case reveals the caller describing a close-to-exploding situation, telling the 911 operator he fatally shot his father and was holding family members at gunpoint. He asks if police are coming to the house. "I already poured gasoline all over the house, I might just set it on fire," the caller said. "OK, well we don't need to do that, OK?" the 911 operator said. "In a little bit I might," the caller said. Callan said those words created a highly dangerous situation. Even if the caller didn't intend to create a violent confrontation, he should have known that was a real possibility, he said. "I see no difference between doing that and dropping a brick off of the top of the a building into a crowded street," he said. Kansas authorities probably would be the ones to file a homicide charge, he said, noting that a reckless homicide conviction in Kansas is punishable by up to 15 years in prison. The fact that the call was made from California shouldn't be a problem, Callan said. When parts of a crime occur in separate states, either or both states have the right to file charges, he said. The police position Wichita police have not said what action might be taken against the police officer who shot and killed Finch. Wichita Deputy Police Chief Troy Livingston said Finch moved his hand toward his waistband. "Our officers came here preparing for a hostage situation. Several got in position. A male came to the front door, and one of our officers discharged his weapon," Livingston said. Callan said he doesn't think the officer will be charged if the evidence shows Finch "went for his waistband in a way that looked like he was going for a gun." However, the killing shows the need for a new kind of training for police. "They have to be super careful that this is not a prank when they do a raid on a home," Callan said. Celebrities often targeted Swatting has been around since the early 2000s. Celebrities are often the victim. In California alone, swatting calls have targeted the homes of actor Tom Cruise, comedian Russell Brand, Kim Kardashian and singers Rihanna and Miley Cyrus. A California state legislator who'd been swatted himself led a drive to make the anti-swatting law tougher. As of January 2014, anybody convicted of falsely reporting an emergency could be ordered to spend a year in jail and reimburse the city departments up to $10,000 for responding to the scene. Federal cases Though there's no federal anti-swatting law, people have been prosecuted on related charges. In 2015, Matthew Tollis of Wethersfield, Connecticut, was sentenced to a year in prison, three years of probation and ordered to perform community service after being convicted in connection with a series of swatting incidents, the US Justice Department reported. The US attorney's office in New Haven, Connecticut, said Tollis took part in swatting calls to the University of Connecticut, the Boston Convention and Exhibition Center, Boston University, two high schools in New Jersey and a high school in Texas. He pleaded guilty to conspiring to engage in the malicious conveying of false information, namely a bomb threat hoax. In July 2014, Jason Allen Neff of Omaha, Nebraska, was sentenced to five years in prison after pleading guilty to swatting-related charges, the US attorney's office in Dallas reported. He was convicted on one count of aiding and abetting the conspiracy to use access devices to modify telecommunications instruments and to make unauthorized access to protected telecommunications computers and one count of obstruction by retaliating against a witness, victim or informant. Six other people involved in the swatting case were sentenced to prison sentences ranging from 30 to 60 months, authorities said. [B] Against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC | |||
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| A Grateful American |
My point is missed by some. And it is fully understandable. I am no way passing the buck in regard to law enforcement's part in this, that will and should be dealt with, and given the gravity of this incident, I believe it will be with utmost scrutiny (as should be). That said. This event would not have occurred had the scumbag who started this shitstorm not made a clear choice to do so, and in fact, this was not the first time he has done such things. And that is the point I wanted to make. All the anger and wrath of the American public should be trained upon him first and foremost. In effect, the man who was killed, and the LEO/Wichita PD, SWAT, and SD, were all set up and put in a position to fail. Given the only video available, and the fact that it is an ongoing investigation, I have the belief that the majority LE entities want to let truth and law prevail. I am sick and fucking tired of cops being "attacked" from all directions in every thing they do. Yes, we need accountability, and that the LE community "serve" the populace, but we have a goddamned duty to do any and all we can to support them, for we have (or our forebears have) abdicated the duty and responsibility of "policing" our society to others. And if I fail to make clear what I am trying to put across, that is on me. The whole of what I was and am trying to convey was that I cannot see enough about the unfolding of the shooting to stand in judgment, at this time but only as the what, why and how of the phone call that put the things into motion. (and yes, to be fair, my bias because of the 911 call, and what I know of comms in such a situation, having been under similar situations with regard to the flow of information and the "heat of the moment" of those on all sides of the event.) Much like the first few hours and days of the Ferguson bit, it looked and sounded like maybe it was a bad shoot, but we all know now, that it was not. And yet, Officer Darren Wilson's life was ruined. But I do not want "the best" to stop dedicating their lives to this service because it is believed that no one has the back of the guys in front. And all of this comes from a life of LE "being there for me", since I was three years old and some of those times, I was not on the right side of the line. And the other side form understanding from another point of view, what these folks deal with when the "blue" comes off and the man or woman is all alone with the images and sounds in their heads. To those who understand, no explanation is needed. To those who do not, no explanation will matter. May we be granted a better year. God Bless and thank you all. -sm "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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posting without pants |
What an absolute disaster, clusterfuck, goatfuck... Jesus I can't think of enough profane terms to even use. I have more thoughts on this and will share them once I fully process them... On a hotshot I will say, we need to remember that that the vast majority of the blame is for the assume who set this nonsense in motion. Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up." | |||
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| Member |
If this sentence encapsulates how you feel, then why go to the trouble of giving an explanation? Or am I reading too literally? | |||
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| I Am The Walrus |
It is an "us vs. them" issue when cops call people "civilians" when they are likely civilians themselves. Concealed carry across state lines for police when citizens can't. That's a different set of rules there. Using tax payer funded vehicles, uniforms and training to work off duty. That's a different set of rules there. I don't "think" military is allowed to be "off duty" while wearing government clothing, using government equipment and work for personal gain. Does anyone else remember community based policing when you knew the officers and they knew you (on good terms)? _____________ | |||
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| Freethinker |
Another question I hope someone who has followed this more closely will be able to answer: Was the video that was released of the incident and linked in the first post from the body camera of the officer who fired the shot at the victim, or was it from the camera of a different officer? The assumption from the beginning was that it was from the camera of the officer who fired the shot, but later I got the impression that that may not have been the case. ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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| Bad dog! |
When an officer is killed, we feel like we know important things about his or her values, which we share, so there is a very real sense of loss. That is someone "like us." Like our friends. It feels personal. But "just somebody," however innocent, like the man in that video, is for a lot of people an abstraction, like the outline of a human figure, but not flesh and blood with a beating heart. "Well, oops. Gosh, that's too bad, but it happens. Above all, let's be sure to support the police." But the man in that video, Andrew Finch, had a life to live, and his life was part of the lives of others, who are devastated. He was the father of two young boys. Just as we are all responsible for what we do, whoever shot him needs to be held responsible for taking his life. ______________________________________________________ "You get much farther with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone." | |||
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| Corgis Rock |
The police get a call reporting a shooting. The caller hangs up. What is the official response? Does the dispatcher attempt to call back? Does anyone check the caller ID? When telemarketers call, my phone shows a local number. When I called back I get "You have dialed..." As SWAT is charging off, what is the response to gather more information and rule out that that the call was a fake? “ The work of destruction is quick, easy and exhilarating; the work of creation is slow, laborious and dull. | |||
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| A Grateful American |
Yeah, at the end of it, I still had several thoughts I was in the process of typing, but I arrived at this conclusion as I was typing it out, and posted. "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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| Member |
My first inclination back when this thread was on page 1 was to respond that the shooter should be criminally charged. Watching the crappy video it would be easy to react that way. It’s hard to say at this point what went wrong without more info. Mistakes may have been made by the cops but I don’t know about criminal liability. We may never know. What happened is a tradgedy for sure. And one asshole is certainly to blame. Two good things should come from this tragedy: use of what happened as training material and/or modification to tactics as needed; and of course, charging the asshole that caused all this to the max. We live in an imperfect world. Bad things happen to good people all the time. We ask people to do the difficult tasks required to make our society safe and to keep functioning. And when one of them apparently screws up or makes a bad decision we want to charge them all and throw them in jail. Is that fair? Not if we want to have cops and first responders on the job. Do cops get different treatment than us civies? Probably in some cases they do, but again, we are asking them to do a very difficult job with relatively low pay for what they do. Nobody’s life is on the line when I’m at work. How about you? Should we charge doctors with murder if they screw up in the operating room? Not if we want to have surgeons available that can save lives on a daily basis. If the doc is negligent then take it to court. All I know is, if someone breaks in to my house and takes me and my family hostage I want the cops to show up in less than 3 minutes, not harm a fly in getting to my house and certainly doing no harm to my neighbors, and to take the scumbag out with a 500 yard headshot, at night, in the rain if need be to save us. And if the cops or the bad guy should set my house on fire during all this, I want some fireman to enter our burning home to save us, risking that he may never see his own kids or wife again. So, I guess I gotta cut them some slack and give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Nothing is perfect in this world. But overall, we are doing more good than bad as a society even with our occasional screw ups. | |||
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delicately calloused |
To some degree I think we focus on law enforcement because that is a factor we think we can better control. We know we can't control the behavior of an outlaw, so like the gun control advocates, we reflexively direct our attention to the law abiding. This is not to say all went well with LE that night or that the policy and training are where they should be. But I think we tend to misplace emphasis out of frustration or some other emotion. You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier | |||
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| Member |
There's the crux of the problem right there. We've become so used to leaving the problem for others to solve that we no longer have control over the solution. -------------------------- Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. -- H L Mencken I always prefer reality when I can figure out what it is. -- JALLEN 10/18/18 | |||
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| hello darkness my old friend  |
This civilian things seems to come up a lot. Mainly from ex military folks(them) complaining about we non military citizens(us). Oddly enough I grew up as a military dependant so I am familiar with the term Civilian. In all honestly i never really new what the word meant until I looked it up. Citizens don't get it and I suspect rarely use the term in general as they they have little need or understanding of this somewhat derogatory classification. I suspect when you hear officers use the term those officers are likely ex military and using the term they are quite well acquainted with and are likely mistaken by the actual definition. Definition of civilian 1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law 2 a : one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b : outsider 1 | |||
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