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"Due to the actions of a prankster, we have an innocent victim," Wichita police Deputy

Let me fix this:"Due to the incompetence and lack of training of the Wichita police department, we have an innocent victim," Wichita police Deputy

Cops hiding across the street with a bead on guy, finger on trigger with long guns and they are in fear of their life??? Are they joking?? The officer and others like him shouldn't be in Law Enforcement.
 
Posts: 336 | Location: SE. Florida | Registered: April 05, 2011Report This Post
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I saw the video.

Victim stands in the doorway with a spot light trained on him so that he probably can't see a fucking thing. He blinded by the light.

LEO across the street with rifle shoots.

It's pay out time to the victim's estate.

SWAT team shooting in Tucson several years ago resulted in a huge law suit settlement to victims widow. Victim came to the door with an unloaded AR15.

He had 71 rounds fired at him. 42 hits.

Jury ruled excessive force. Millions in settlement awarded to widow.

Some SWAT teams are out of control.


*********
"Some people are alive today because it's against the law to kill them".
 
Posts: 8228 | Location: Arizona | Registered: August 17, 2008Report This Post
Shall Not Be Infringed
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quote:
Originally posted by skyline009:
quote:
Originally posted by fatmanspencer: You gonna let them get whatever item they have and present it at you? Because I wouldnt, and I'd go home to my family, which a good Agency would care more about.


This is the attitude that concerned me. Maybe you should stay home.


Seriously Fatman, Lord help us if you roll up to a similar scene with that attitude! Roll Eyes

Watch the BodyCam video....Then tell us how the Swat Officer is justified in discharging a weapon (likely an M4, from cover) in that situation! Victom was murdered!


____________________________________________________________

If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !!
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Posts: 9552 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: October 29, 2011Report This Post
safe & sound
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quote:
I'm throwing myself face-down prone on the ground spread eagle and shouting "Don't shoot, I'm compliant!"



That's my plan.

I was once being held at gunpoint by the police while perpetrating the greatest pallet heist of the century. After informing the officer I was armed both him and his partner drew their weapons while I had my hands out and up. The officer closest to me holstered his weapon and approached me to disarm me.

I was carrying a Kahr, and as he lifted my shirt I told him that it didn't have a safety, and to please keep the trigger clear as he removed it. He then asked if I would remove it and hand it to him. While his partner had his gun pointed at me. No thanks.

That's when I played like a statue and told him he'd have to take it himself, and to please not shoot me in the ass during the process. Wink

I'm happy face down, arms and legs out, motionless. Let them drag me off. Bumps and bruises buff out faster than gunshot wounds.


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Posts: 15918 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Report This Post
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
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quote:
Originally posted by GWBiker:
< snip >

Some SWAT teams are out of control.



No shit. I'd say 98.6% or more are out of control.

After the unlawful killing of Cheye Calvo's Labrador Retrievers in Brewyn Heights, MD, I ceased having ANY use for SWAT teams fielded by the local police. And less use for "no knock warrants." There is no way that local police have the vast sums needed to field a properly trained unit with these capabilities.

Then I learned the Keystoner Cops across America receieved MRAPs, APCs, and belt-fed LMGs and HMGs thanks to the Obama Administration. What the ever livin' fuck for? Expecting the Adolph Hitler Division of the SS to roll into town?





Nice is overrated

"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government."
Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
 
Posts: 32262 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Report This Post
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Honestly, I can't answer. Nothing I can say will convey just how disappointed I am in most of this comments blaming the officer for doing his job. Nothing I say will make any of you see the facts, and I cant change you not understanding. So I will leave this discussion alone. See ya'll on other things.


Used guns deserve a home too
 
Posts: 783 | Location: North Ga | Registered: August 06, 2016Report This Post
More persistent
than capable
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quote:
Originally posted by fatmanspencer:
Honestly, I can't answer. Nothing I can say will convey just how disappointed I am in most of this comments blaming the officer for doing his job. Nothing I say will make any of you see the facts, and I cant change you not understanding. So I will leave this discussion alone. See ya'll on other things.


You going to ask us civilians more questions about machine guns? I don't trust you with a fork.


Lick the lollipop of mediocrity once and you suck forever.
 
Posts: 1102 | Location: North | Registered: August 27, 2012Report This Post
Raptorman
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Oh, I understand completely.

Innocent unarmed VICTIM killed by SWAT member.

That's ALL the "facts" you need to know.

There is no way to justify this in any way form or fashion.


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Here, poke at it with this stick.
 
Posts: 34488 | Location: North, GA | Registered: October 09, 2002Report This Post
Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
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I’ve not read in depth yet on this. One question I have, was that actually a SWAT officer, or just an officer with a rifle?

SWAT teams don’t just materialize from thin air. It would be routine to have patrol officers respond, set up a perimeter and organize a emergency entry team (in case they heard shots fired inside), while trying to make contact with the residents. SWAT here isn’t even going to get a phone call until a situation is confirmed by a supervisor on scene, and even then it’s going to be another half hour before anything is organized.

Until then, it’s wait and watch, unless someone gets the resident on the phone.

I trust about 10% of what comes over the radio from dispatch. This is a good example of why. I’ve never gone on a hostage or barricade call that was anything like how it was initially dispatched. ‘Trus but verify’ isn’t even close. ‘Assume they are full of shit and go figure it out, cautiously’ is more like it.




Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here.

Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
-JALLEN

"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
 
Posts: 11465 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Report This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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quote:
Originally posted by fatmanspencer:
Honestly, I can't answer. Nothing I can say will convey just how disappointed I am in most of this comments blaming the officer for doing his job. Nothing I say will make any of you see the facts, and I cant change you not understanding. So I will leave this discussion alone. See ya'll on other things.


My mother and father were aghast at this video. I guess I hope I don't see you on other things. I can't convey how disappointed I am in your replies.

quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
I'm happy face down, arms and legs out, motionless. Let them drag me off. Bumps and bruises buff out faster than gunshot wounds.


You know, I'm right there with you. And I grew up hearing the stories cops don't want people who aren't cops to know.


______________________________________________
Carthago delenda est
 
Posts: 17800 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
quote:
I'm throwing myself face-down prone on the ground spread eagle and shouting "Don't shoot, I'm compliant!"



That's my plan.

I was once being held at gunpoint by the police while perpetrating the greatest pallet heist of the century. After informing the officer I was armed both him and his partner drew their weapons while I had my hands out and up. The officer closest to me holstered his weapon and approached me to disarm me.

I was carrying a Kahr, and as he lifted my shirt I told him that it didn't have a safety, and to please keep the trigger clear as he removed it. He then asked if I would remove it and hand it to him. While his partner had his gun pointed at me. No thanks.

That's when I played like a statue and told him he'd have to take it himself, and to please not shoot me in the ass during the process. Wink

I'm happy face down, arms and legs out, motionless. Let them drag me off. Bumps and bruises buff out faster than gunshot wounds.


I'm happy to comply as well, but my concern is that it won't matter. If the officers issue conflicting commands, decide I moved too slow or too fast, or they were agitated from something earlier in their day the result is the same. I may be killed. Will we reach a point where we start looking at police as the same or worse threat to our safety as criminals?
 
Posts: 2381 | Registered: October 24, 2007Report This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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I'm almost wondering if pretending to faint and collapsing arms open wide isn't the best option now.


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Carthago delenda est
 
Posts: 17800 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Report This Post
delicately calloused
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quote:
Originally posted by fatmanspencer:
Honestly, I can't answer. Nothing I can say will convey just how disappointed I am in most of this comments blaming the officer for doing his job. Nothing I say will make any of you see the facts, and I cant change you not understanding. So I will leave this discussion alone. See ya'll on other things.


I know you've left the discussion but I must address this persistence that the officer had no choice. The bottom line is that if officers leave the public believing we could be next to die for doing nothing more than opening our door to aggressive, confusing over shouting commands from multiple officers we're not even sure are engaging us, then any good will fostered over the years will be lost forever. Any formerly heart warming story of police heroism will be asterisked. This is not a threat, but you thought the BLM movement was corrosive, wait until the general public feels like a target with no place to be safe. Right or wrong every officer regardless of his record will be the enemy.

You don't want that. I don't want that. There has to be a resolution that doesn't involve otherwise innocent citizens being executed because some officer was trained it is justified if his commands are not followed to the letter. Citizens are not trained as officers are. We don't know what to do in the high stress circumstance that comes to our door. Most of us are innocently doing our business. I can honestly say if the local cops came to my door right now and started cross commanding me, I am likely to not do it right. According to what I understand from this and other threads, I could be justifiably killed for that. That is not the USA. I don't care what your training is.



You’re a lying dog-faced pony soldier
 
Posts: 29943 | Location: Norris Lake, TN | Registered: May 07, 2008Report This Post
Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie
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quote:
Originally posted by fatmanspencer:
Honestly, I can't answer. Nothing I can say will convey just how disappointed I am in most of this comments blaming the officer for doing his job. Nothing I say will make any of you see the facts, and I cant change you not understanding. So I will leave this discussion alone. See ya'll on other things.


Doing his job? The facts? Jesus, man, I couldn't more appalled by your attitude and "understanding of the facts."


~Alan

Acta Non Verba
NRA Life Member (Patron)
God, Family, Guns, Country

Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan

 
Posts: 31128 | Location: Elv. 7,000 feet, Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Report This Post
PopeDaddy
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quote:
Originally posted by fatmanspencer:
Honestly, I can't answer. Nothing I can say will convey just how disappointed I am in most of this comments blaming the officer for doing his job. Nothing I say will make any of you see the facts, and I cant change you not understanding. So I will leave this discussion alone. See ya'll on other things.


Looks to me like you’re reaching for your waistband.


0:01
 
Posts: 4321 | Location: ALABAMA | Registered: January 05, 2008Report This Post
Team Apathy
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quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
quote:
He's referring to having been the victim of an attack, in which he was ambushed by a gunman.


I was the victim of an ambush in the same vein as a police officer involved in an ambush. It was a direct result of my job.

I've been shot at 3 times, ambushed by a gunman once, had a handful of physical encounters, and came close to getting run over by cars several times. The biggest difference between myself and a police officer in these scenarios is that I was forced to face these risks unarmed. The only life saving tool I had at my disposal was mounted on top of my shoulders, and after I figured the risks were no longer worth the reward I moved on to other things.

If anybody wants particulars I'd be happy to share them openly on the forum or privately in e-mail. My address in in my profile.

I have also had police point their guns at me in my current capacity, and I'm confident it will happen again in the future. I have a vested interest in officers who are calm, level headed, and not jumpy, anxious, or nervous.

I think the problem here lies in the training. I have several friends who have been through the local police academy, and several more acquaintances. They are taught that they can be killed at any second, by anybody, and that lesson is drilled into them using real life examples. The problem as I see it is that those examples are statistically low. You're making officers who are fearful for their lives when there's no need for them to be afraid.

I don't want to see any officer injured or killed, but that risk comes along with the job. I definitely do not want to see innocent parties get injured or die. As an officer, that's the risk you accept when you sign up for the job. The poor guy on his porch didn't have anything to do with the events that transpired.

In my opinion it is unacceptable to have this type of collateral damage. This is why I favor seeing a weapon prior to shooting as opposed to shooting because somebody isn't moving the way you would prefer.


I don’t often agree with you in this type of thread but I do today, with one addition. You say it is a training issue, and it is. But it is also a hiring issue. It seems the wrong people are getting the job in many cases.

I don’t know anything at all about this case except what I’ve read in this thread prior to the quoted post, but the video is damning. I’ll never ever give a “absolute” judgment of my opinion based on news reports and single video files... that being said, the video looks real real bad. I know the way I would train my officers if they postures that scenario and it would have resulted in a different outcome.
 
Posts: 6479 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Report This Post
No double standards
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quote:
Originally posted by fatmanspencer: You gonna let them get whatever item they have and present it at you? Because I wouldnt, and I'd go home to my family...


ie, I don't care how many innocent people I kill, as long as I get home safe.




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 30668 | Location: UT | Registered: November 11, 2003Report This Post
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Prank or not, this department and its officers are going to be rightly judged by their very real actions in response to the call. And it doesn't look good for them based on that video.
 
Posts: 2540 | Location: WI | Registered: December 29, 2012Report This Post
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
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quote:
Originally posted by fatmanspencer:
Honestly, I can't answer. Nothing I can say will convey just how disappointed I am in most of this comments blaming the officer for doing his job. Nothing I say will make any of you see the facts, and I cant change you not understanding. So I will leave this discussion alone. See ya'll on other things.



"Doing his job" includes killing an unarmed, innocent man who had a shit storm suddenly materialize around him, one he probably never thought might occur?

Bullshit.

You and your ilk defending this killing of an unarmed, innocent man are DOUCHEBADGES.

DOUCHEBADGES.

Let that phrase sink in.

Because it describes you to a T.

Everything is okay if you go home at the end of the day.

Bullshit.

If that is your metric for success, you should be swabbing out portable shithouses in the summertime in Sonora using your tongue.

There are times in the career of everyone when they might not go home at the end of the workday.

I was a volunteer fire-trained paramedic. There were times when I might not have gone home had I only focused on me.

People I knew died on September 11, 2001. Were they focused on getting home at the end of the day? Hell no. In many cases, my friends ran toward the shitstorm, knowing it might end their lives.

Your focus on justifying a stupid, stupid action by one idiot with a rifle and a badge shows how little you value the trust the people place in our EMS, Fire, and Police.





Nice is overrated

"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government."
Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
 
Posts: 32262 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Report This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
You say it is a training issue, and it is. But it is also a hiring issue. It seems the wrong people are getting the job in many cases.


My parents were complaining about shitty hires in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. What's new? I know it isn't something discussed outside of the blue wall/line/curtain whatever, but it surely isn't something new. There's shit cops who shouldn't make it to the cool assignments that do because of politics or the buddy system or whatever you want to call it. The guy that shot Daniel Shaver? Shit cop. The guy who domed this poor fellow? Shit cop.

But let's not pretend nobody around him thought he was a shit cop and didn't speak up because cops don't rat on cops.


______________________________________________
Carthago delenda est
 
Posts: 17800 | Location: Sonoran Desert | Registered: February 10, 2011Report This Post
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